similarities Karate/Tae kwon Do

[Manny]

Silly question but nice to start a topic. For you what are the similtaries beetwen Karate Do and Tae Kwon Do. If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?

I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.

Manny

 

[terryl965]

Manny just as a tidbit do you want the similarities between Shotokan and KKW or the WTF. Remember the WTF just governs the rule set for the sportside of TKD and the KKW has the set of curriculum and certification part.

I will just say this between them it is not much but before they really made alot of chnges over the last thirty years it was so familair just look at Jhoon Rhree system, it is solely based on Shotokan, ducks because so many will dis-agree but that is OK.

I would like to say that ITF original had more in common than WTF/KKW does.

 

[chrispillertkd]

All of the early Kwan founders were quite open about having studied karate while in Japan. Most studied Shotokan, such as Gen. Choi of the Oh Do Kwan; Grand Master Lee, Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan; Grand Master Rho, Byung Jik of the Song Moo Kwan; Grand Master Chun, Sang Sup of the Yun Moo Kwan/Ji Do Kwan. Some of them also studied Shudokan karate (which was developed by Kanken Toyama) such as Yoon, Byung In of the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu/Chang Moo Kwan and Yon, Kwi Byung of the Ji Do Kwan.

Given this, I certainly don't see any reason to doubt that Taekwon-Do had a lot of influence on its development from karate. Now, I will say that Gen. Choi especially, but also other Kwan heads, were adamant about developing what they knew into a particularly Korean martial art. You can still see karate influenes in ITF Taekwon-Do mostly in technique sequences in the patterns. In WTF the influence seems to be mostly in body mechanics (the crossing of the arms for blocks, the manner the body weight is shifted to gain power, etc.) and in technique sequences in the older pattern sets (the Palgues, but also for a while most of the Kwans just taught a Koreanized version of the Pinan katas).

That all being said, I'd point out that both Kukkiwon and ITF Taekwon-Do have developed quite a bit and while you can still see the influences of karate in some of what they do they are their own animals at this point.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.

Chris summed it up quite well. But it would be interesting to understand why you don't believe Shotokan and Shudokan karate were an antecedent component of tae kwon do. The historical record on that is rather clear and unambiguous.

For you what are the similtaries beetwen Karate Do and Tae Kwon Do. If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?

I actually think KKW has diverged the farthest from Shotokan karate, given the changes in technique meant to emphasize speed. The TKD groups that are closest in technique to Shotokan are probably those going by the "Moo Duk Kwan tae kwon do". Where I live, there's a significant amount of schools that are from this lineage - they still perform the Pyung Ahn forms hard style and they are not affected by Hwang Kee's later attempts to make tang soo do/Soo Bakh Do more 'Korean' or wushu-like.

 

[Victor Smith]

You have to start by studying your history.

For almost 50 years Japan ruled Korea. Following thier standards they abused the pouplation, debased all korean practices, forbid the study of korean martial arts, etc. Japanese Judo became Korean Yudo, and those that had the chance got to study the art of thier conquerors which was Shotokan.

Funakoshi took his teachings into the Japanese universities starting in the 20's, and those young men became military officers and civil administrators in Korean and Manchuko (renamed Manchuria). Some of them absorbed local teachings and brought them back to Japan. In turn that was all the Korean's pre WWII had exposure to and after the war started building new martial a traditions. Choi brought as many under the TKD lable as possible. His first book contained his new TKD forms as well as the Shotokan forms. Kee didn't join the TKD and kept to his shotokan studies.

In time korean changes occured in all of the arts, new forms, new kicking traditions (or old ones depending).

Also Daito Ryu was the source for some Hapkido development.

But the Korean's can not acknowldge the Japanese nor should they ever. What Japan did to their country, culture, existence should never be fogotten by the Koreans. That some of their traditions came from the Japanese, well put it this way, during the Korean Olympics a Japanese TKD was competing. TV interviewed a Japnaese man watching from the stands, and correctly reading the crowd told the TV< I really hope the Koreans win else I won't get out of here alive!> PS. the Korean's beat the Japanese.

The smartest thing is to respect Korea, forget the issue of origins which is long gone in any case, and just practice in the now.

There is no win in this.

 

[dancingalone]

The smartest thing is to respect Korea, forget the issue of origins which is long gone in any case, and just practice in the now.

There is no win in this.

I generally agree with you, Victor, but not on this one. TKD was my first art and I still remember being fed the TKD is 2000 years old replete with the Hwarangdo creation myth. I don't support untruthful propaganda, even if it is understandable why it arose in the first place. So while there is no reason to seek out Korean stylists to whack them over the head with the karate link, I think it is fine for TKD people to be curious about the origins of their art, and forums like MT are useful as first places of contact that might lead them to more academic research made by people like Dakin Burdick.

Burdick's article about TKD history is available at http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html with a full bibliography for anyone who is interested in reading further.

 

[Manny]

The way our tkd masters taught us is TKD is a Korean Martial Art that has more the 2000 years of existence. In my younger days sambonim told us TKD came from tang Soo Do and Soo Back Do.

Then recently I start to see some articles from internet and it seems that TKD was an evolution of some MA like the shotokan.

For me TKD and Karate Do ShotoKan have some similarietis, TKD evolved into a kicking art.however seein videos from 1950 I see the TKD practice was karate alike.

Now in this years there is complete diference amoung WTF TKD and Karate Do Shotokan, but I think in the beginin of the birth of TKD have so much things that was from Shotokan.

Some times, because the way I teach I feel my TKD is the old school, I don't focus on kicks only (like the WTF) I do the taeguks poomsae yes, but I like to use equally hands and feet, and this makes me feel special if you like.


My TKD is not as fast as WTF but is strong (in some way like Karate), I put atention to the stances,blocks,parries,punches,elbows,hand techs and kicks too trying not to be so fancy here cause I like how a good trust front kick is or how a poweful side kick can be used to keep bad guys at bay and because my body does not allow me to do that flashy tricky kicks anymore.

So basically, in some ways I feel I am doing more Karate than TKD just because my kick arsenal is not too wide.

Manny

 

[rlp271]

Japan definitely attempted cultural genocide in Korea, and I've heard it argued, can't remember the source, that if Japan had continued to rule Korea, they likely would have wiped out the language within a generation or two. After you do that, there isn't a lot to keep a culture alive. Especially when you look at the history of Korea leading up to Japanese colonization.

By the time the Japanese took over Korea, Korean fighting arts were already a thing of the past. The fighting traditions of Korea were snuffed out by neo-Confucianism and Korean kings long before the Japanese got there. The whole thing about the Japanese banning Korean martial arts specifically rings a little hollow to me. They may have stopped Koreans from practicing martial arts period, but I doubt they would just ban Korean martial arts, since they weren't widespread enough at that point to be any real threat for a national uprising. On another forum, someone said they heard that Taekkyon had already been banned by King Kojong in the late 1880s, because gangsters were using it to fight in the capital. It would be hard to verify that, because the Japanese took over in the middle of his rule, and the records would be difficult to find. If it were true however, then it shows even more the decline of fighting arts in Korea.

Such a ban would be pretty much unenforceable in some of the more mountainous parts of the country, especially the north (as in modern North Korea) and the central east coast. There are towns on the east coast, like Sokcho, that were untouched by the Korean War in the 1950s, because they were so secluded. I doubt the Japanese would have bothered enforcing such a ban way out there. So, if Korean martial arts were that widespread, we'd still have them.

Korea did create a lot out of the occupation period though, and they should have been proud of that. Instead, the government helped create the Hwarang myths, and they spread a lot of false history about while spreading Taekwondo. It's a shame really, because the martial arts that came out of the occupation may have been Japanese influenced, but they took on some Korean influence as well, and were rich in and of themselves. The revisionist history doesn't do anything for Korean martial arts, except make them less respected.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Manny,

I think there are several important historical players.

First the raw historical occupation by the Japanese, the molestation of their women, daughters, mothers, etc., the cultural genocide, etc. and especially the latest news being uncovered, that Teddy Roosevelt virtually told the Japanese after the conclusion of the Japanese/Russian war to go ahead and take control of the rest in the region to keep things cool (my wording), and the world didn't stop Japan, it's always going to be hard for the Koreans to acknowledge Japan in a positive light. Follow the Korean news still trying to get acknowledgment and reparations for the women involved in the past.

Second Japan still does it's best to ignore everything as much as possible. Their martial movie Kuro Obi painted Manchiku as a peaceful place to live except for the dojo wars ignoring the Japanese Occupation of Manchuria was a brutal invasion and attempt to make it an arm of Japan, the cover up and rationalization continues to this day.

As for the link of TKD and TSDMDK to the Sillia warriors, I believe they are correct. Remember each founder was a survivor of the war of the Koreas. The were in the army (no choice of course) and fought to defend thier country just like those ancient warriors. No reason not to bind their arts to their historical past as they were rediscovering how to stand up on their own as a country, and having survived through blood they were modern ties to their ancient past, with great honnor. So they used that as their history.

Look we can't look at anything even 100 years ago and know exactly what was happening. The past is the Korean's business. Our art is in the present and that's all that truly matters. I for one respect the korean's for what they have done. Not my arts, but they survived through tougher circumstances than most of us will ever understand.

peace,

 

[rlp271]

My biggest issue with the revisionist history is that it's just simply not true. Yes, those men were warriors, and yes they lived through the rape of their country, but they can't just make up history and write it off as fact. They are going to get called on it 100% of the time. As far as them having a link to the Shilla warriors, in heroism definitely. They still can't link modern Korean martial arts to ancient ones though. And some of the top, and oldest, Taekkyon people have raised doubts about the founders of the Kwans being trained in Taekkyon at all. The fact is that Korea had an extremely rich post-occupation martial arts history coming together. They should have cultivated it, and let it grow instead of just making things up.

Most nations take the sport or in this case martial art of the invader and make it their own. A good modern example would be India and cricket. A more extreme modern example, again the British, would be the Trobriand islander's version of cricket. You can Google Trobriand cricket, they have a lot of videos on it. They've taken cricket and added their own flavors to it. It's still cricket, but it's their cricket. That's what it seems Koreans did with Japanese martial arts. They took ownership of them and changed them to make them distinctly Korean.

As far as the world turning a blind eye to what was going on in Korea, that was just unforgivable. I've been to the House of Sharing in Gwangju, and I've seen the remaining 'comfort women' protesting out in front of the Japanese embassy. They had their 900th protest earlier this year. What they deal with even today is ridiculous, and the Korean government should support them more, but doesn't probably out of fear that it would hurt economic relationships with Japan. The fact is that the West was pretty happy to just let Japan keep control of Korea post-WWII as a deterrent against the "Communist threat." That still doesn't give the Korean government an excuse for re-writing history, but it makes it a whole lot easier to understand why it was done.

The issues with Japan not admitting to the Rape of Nanking in China or kidnapping women from Korea and other countries, governments have to deal with that. The Chinese government has been pushing for it, and grassroots movements are going in Korea, but witnesses are dying off the longer this dispute drags on, and I think the Japanese are more than happy to just let that happen and hope it's forgotten. Judging by my students' history books, that's not going to happen any time soon. Which is as it should be.

Each country has to own up to its past. It doesn't matter if you were the target of the atrocities, or the one committing them.

 

[punisher73]

It's not a new thing at all. Okinawans changed the name of karate from meaning "Chinese Hand" to "Empty Hand" to help with the japanization of their art form. Japan hated all things Chinese and so that link was removed. It wasn't until more recently that it was admitted that karate developed from kung fu (China).

Mas Oyama, founder of one of Japan's most popular styles of karate (kyokushin) was Korean. Mas changed his name from Yong I-Choi to the more Japanese sounding name of Masutatsu Oyama. He moved to Japan when he was 15 where he started to study Shotokan under Funakoshi. From things I have read, to this day, many japanese deny that he was Korean and insist he was Japanese.

No one is saying that survivors of the Japanese occupation of Korea should just forget what happened. But, to lie about it and create other stories is just as bad. Many people want to know the roots to better understand their art and also "why" the changes were made from the source.

 

[Manny]

Many people want to know the roots to better understand their art and also "why" the changes were made from the source.

You got me!

Manny

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Chris summed it up quite well. But it would be interesting to understand why you don't believe Shotokan and Shudokan karate were an antecedent component of tae kwon do. The historical record on that is rather clear and unambiguous.



I actually think KKW has diverged the farthest from Shotokan karate, given the changes in technique meant to emphasize speed. The TKD groups that are closest in technique to Shotokan are probably those going by the "Moo Duk Kwan tae kwon do". Where I live, there's a significant amount of schools that are from this lineage - they still perform the Pyung Ahn forms hard style and they are not affected by Hwang Kee's later attempts to make tang soo do/Soo Bakh Do more 'Korean' or wushu-like.

I practice Moo Duk Kwan TKD, and we practice the Shotokan Hyungs: Pyung Ahn Hyungs, Bassai, Naihanchi Hyungs, Chinto, Kang Song Kun.. . From my perspective we are quite similar to Shotokan Karate Do. Granted we emphasize the high kicks, but at this point so do most Karate schools (they saw what worked, and adopted our kicks just as we adopted their techs).

I see no reason why I, as an American, cannot acknowledge TKD's lineage to Karate. Not being Korean, not having that negative sentiment towards Japan/Okinawa, not having my family occupied and oppressed by Japan, I have no birds in that fight.. . BUT, that is why so many Koreans don't speak of the Japanese/Okinawan influences, and why some even deny it.

 

[Gorilla]

I have been involved with TKD for nine years and Shotokan for about a month. I think that they are like a puzzle piece they fit together quite well. The strengths of Shotokan's punching and hand techniques are complemented by TKD strong kicking.

 

[Gorilla]

It seems to me the more that I talk to Shotokan Practitioners they seem to have a ton of respect for skilled TKD people.

 

[Manny]

It seems to me the more that I talk to Shotokan Practitioners they seem to have a ton of respect for skilled TKD people.

I respect anyone from any martial art no matter japanese karate, or chinese kung fu or american kenpo karate. I think all MA have their strong and weak points and there is no single best of all (Martial Arts).

I really like karate, I really like aikido, I really like TKD, I don't like so much Kung Fu (Wu Shu) but I respect the people who do it, I don't like su much tha brazilian jujutsu however thera are out there good people that uses it efectively.

Gorilla there are some techs I have borrowed from Karate, one is the reverse punch and the sweeps,from aikido I have borrowed some moves to redirect energy and some wrist and arm bars, from judo I have borrowed a couple of trows (the easy ones).

I rember one time doing syrum wrestling in the dojang, I use some kind of judo, doing syrum in the kneeling position I use some aikido moves, even one time I use a tomoinage trow doing some hosisul.

I think that people like ourselves that try another MA are more open mind and with a better fighting arsenal that the average tkd or karate student.

Manny

 

[Gorilla]

Manny,

My kids are really gaining allot from their Shotokan experience. It is supported by their current trainer but not by their previous trainer. They are punching much better now that they are cross training in Shotokan. The punches are much harder and their use of distance when punching is much improved. They are throwing more punches in their TKD sparring and it has enhanced their effectiveness(those reverse punches hurt).

 

[Manny]

Manny,

My kids are really gaining allot from their Shotokan experience. It is supported by their current trainer but not by their previous trainer. They are punching much better now that they are cross training in Shotokan. The punches are much harder and their use of distance when punching is much improved. They are throwing more punches in their TKD sparring and it has enhanced their effectiveness(those reverse punches hurt).

Good for you and your kids! I think they going to benefit from this crosstraining too.

I crosstarined in Kenpo Karate and liket a lot, now the next year I want to crosstraing in anything else and I am thinking about: a) Japanese Karate, b) Budo Taijutsu and c) Judo or aikido.

My friend Daniel has a firsth dan in Karate Do and Budo taijutsu and he has invited me to join him in the budo taijutsu but I feel this too ninja but maybe the karate can be good.

Manny

 

[puunui]

If you want to be specific beetwen Shotokan and KUKIWON/WTF?
I've been reading here in this forum TKD evolved from Shotokan Karate, this is something I don't believe but I am not a guru in this.

Depends on how you define Shotokan and also Taekwondo. The most senior Shotokan student from Korea was GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan. GM Lee began his training while a student at Chuo University and continued his studies after graduation. GM Lee (who I interviewed at length both at his house and over the telephone) stated that his main teacher was not FUNAKOSHI Gichin, but rather his son, FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei, who GM Lee referred to as "Waka Sensei", or young sensei. GM Lee said he studied mostly with Waka Sensei during the night classes. Waka Sensei had a day job, just like GM Lee and so they worked in the day and trained at night.

GM Lee stated that Waka Sensei emphasized a very short narrow stance as well as economical arm movements. This is what he taught to his students during the 1940's. Waka Sensei died in 1945, and his work was taken over by junior students such as Nakayama Sensei of the JKA. GM Lee was senior to Nakayama Sensei in age and experience in Shotokan.

GM Lee said that the longer wider stance was something that evolved out of the Japanese style sparring that was being developed in Japan, which was to make Karate into arts such as kendo and judo. He said that when they first started sparring (with five step, then three step and finally one step sparring), the students would step out wide so that they could connect squarely against their opponent or partner's torso, who were generally standing with a 45 degree angle to their body. In order to hit square, one would have to step at that 45 degree angle to make the T like connection with their opponent.

Modern Taekwondo competitors adopt the same stepping out motion, in what is known as "cover punch".

He said that that stepping out wide was then incorporated into the kata. However, originally the stances were short and narrow, with your joints aligned.

Shotokan went in this direction during the 1950's, and because of the many exchanges Korea had with Japan during the time, Taekwondo stances also became longer and wider. The problem in Taekwondo came because many of the senior practitioners started Taekwondo during this time frame, and so they adopted the wider stances, and continue to use that wide stance.

In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk returned to Korea and gave a series of seminars to reeducate the students into adopting the shorter narrow stances that was originally taught at the Shotokan. These were adopted into the Kukkiwon poomsae that we have today.

So even though the Kukkiwon forms have been rearranged into the Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae, the movements themselves, including but not limited to the short narrow stances and compact arm movements, is closer to the original shotokan than the shotokan of today.

 

[puunui]

I would like to say that ITF original had more in common than WTF/KKW does.

I don't know what you mean when you say ITF original, but I will say that the ITF style is closer to Shotokan of today, with its wider stances, while the Kukkiwon style is closer to the original pre WWII Shotokan. You can see pre WWII shotokan in FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei's books which have been reprinted. The book Toudejutsu is one place you might start if you wanted to do a serious study.