side kick question

[bluewaveschool]

Since the side kick is pretty much universal to most MA, thought I'd ask this here.

While teaching the side kick last night, one of my assistant instructors told a student that the foot needed to be either completely horizontal on impact, or that the foot can be turned that the toes are pointed somewhat downward. I've never heard of this second option, I certainly wasn't taught it, so I asked during break where they picked that up. Couldn't give me an exact answer to whom, which I found weird since this person has only ever had 2 instructors and I came up and got my BB with both of them. Has anyone ever heard of this, or do any of you teach it?

 

[dancingalone]

Since the side kick is pretty much universal to most MA, thought I'd ask this here.

While teaching the side kick last night, one of my assistant instructors told a student that the foot needed to be either completely horizontal on impact, or that the foot can be turned that the toes are pointed somewhat downward. I've never heard of this second option, I certainly wasn't taught it, so I asked during break where they picked that up. Couldn't give me an exact answer to whom, which I found weird since this person has only ever had 2 instructors and I came up and got my BB with both of them. Has anyone ever heard of this, or do any of you teach it?

The toes facing downward on a front leg side kick has been a staple of mine for years. I learned it in Jhoon Rhee 'Texkwondo'. Basically, it has a number of advantages. 1) It allows you to engage more of your glutes into the kick, almost but not quite like a back kick, which I believe can add power to the kick, depending on the body make up of the kicker. 2) The primary reason why my old TKD instructor taught it was because he felt this type of side kick minimized your exposure a little bit more. As I recall we were prepping for a point sparring tournament when I first was introduced to it.

I can't think of any real disadvantages to the technique other than aesthetic or stylistic ones. It is fractionally slower when performed with the back leg IMO, but I never use it that way. Only off the front leg.

 

[seasoned]

Toes pointed somewhat downward, allowes the hip to turn into the kick more, adding power to the business end.

 

[ATC]

Yes, toes turned downward slightly is how I was taught also. It forces the blade or heel to be the point of contact, and keeps the kick in a straight line with the hips turned over.

Again the toes are only slightly turned down but horizontal is OK too. However if toes point up then your blade or heel won't be the contact point but your ball or toes will, and your hip will not be turned over. You will lose power also.

This is a TKD way of doing the kick. I do know that many karate schools do it a bit different though.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Since the side kick is pretty much universal to most MA, thought I'd ask this here.

While teaching the side kick last night, one of my assistant instructors told a student that the foot needed to be either completely horizontal on impact, or that the foot can be turned that the toes are pointed somewhat downward. I've never heard of this second option, I certainly wasn't taught it, so I asked during break where they picked that up. Couldn't give me an exact answer to whom, which I found weird since this person has only ever had 2 instructors and I came up and got my BB with both of them. Has anyone ever heard of this, or do any of you teach it?

We do.
Sean

 

[Chris Parker]

Since the side kick is pretty much universal to most MA, thought I'd ask this here.

Hmm, not so sure about that, myself... maybe for modern, unarmoured, typically sporting systems that utilise the hips for power, but that's far from "most MA", or "universal". I could probably fill most of the page with systems that don't feature it, you know....

Okay, that said, part of my background does include in (in TKD and karate), and the mechanics of my current and primary art have lead me to certain realisations about the arts I used to study. In this case, pointing the toes down has another side-benefit, in that it forces the heel forward, ensuring that that is where you contact. That has the entire leg lined up behind it, so for the small sacrifice in range, you get a stronger, more penetrating kick. So, a good thing, I'd say, used when appropriate.

 

[Stac3y]

We teach it that way, too.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In Isshin-Ryu, our side kick is known as 'Yoko Geri'. It is performed by raising the leg into the traditional 'chamber' for a front kick, but with the knee facing to the side. The foot is then snapped forwared, turning the hip over and striking with the blade edge or 'sokuto' of the foot. The toes may be level or pointed slightly downwards.

However, this should not be confused for the toe position on the foot itself. We kick with the toes curled UP and not DOWN, with respect to the toes themselves. The toes may be oriented down, but they are still curled back, if that makes sense.

Now, on the back kick, we do indeed turn the foot so that the toes are facing down such that the heel strikes the target.

This is an example of a Yoko Geri with the heel - not our lineage, but interesting:

Ours looks like this - a bit lower, and with the blade edge of the foot. I can see using either one.

There is also a 'rip kick' in which the toes are curled down and not up, but not part of traditional Isshin-Ryu as I understand it. Done as part of a front kick, and rips downwards after delivering the kick, using the toes as if they were fingers in a kind of tiger claw strike but with the foot. Weird, eh?

 

[ap Oweyn]

To add to the general consensus, yes I was taught that the toes pointing slightly downward was correct. Taekwondo.

 

[ap Oweyn]

The primary reason why my old TKD instructor taught it was because he felt this type of side kick minimized your exposure a little bit more. As I recall we were prepping for a point sparring tournament when I first was introduced to it.

Mind you, it only minimizes your exposure if you accept the premise that your back isn't a viable target. True of many competitions, but not true globally.

 

[dancingalone]

Mind you, it only minimizes your exposure if you accept the premise that your back isn't a viable target. True of many competitions, but not true globally.

Which type of tournaments permit the back as a target?

 

[ap Oweyn]

which type of tournaments permit the back as a target?

MMA for one. Not necessarily hitting. But turning your back that way is just as likely to get you picked up and supplexed. But when I said "globally," I was also referencing the sparring thread. Not all sparring is prep for sportive competition after all. In eskrima, I wouldn't want to get into the habit of turning my back because I don't want a stick or knife (real or training) in the kidney.

 

[dancingalone]

Ah. This was back in the early eighties. No MMA then.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Ah. This was back in the early eighties. No MMA then.

Well, right. Back in the 80s, it seemed like a perfectly reasonable rationale to me too. Then, in the 90s, Dan Severn started dropping kickboxers on the backs of their necks like he was flipping an omelette. And I started reconsidering that proposition.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, right. Back in the 80s, it seemed like a perfectly reasonable rationale to me too. Then, in the 90s, Dan Severn started dropping kickboxers on the backs of their necks like he was flipping an omelette. And I started reconsidering that proposition.

<shrugs> I thought it was fairly apparent I was referring to point sparring in my OP...

Thanks however for anyone who might have needed the clarification.

 

[ATC]

Which type of tournaments permit the back as a target?

WTF does. Not the spine but the everything else.

 

[ap Oweyn]

<shrugs> I thought it was fairly apparent I was referring to point sparring in my OP...

Well it was. Which is why I agreed that it made perfect sense in that context. But given that the actual OP hadn't specified point sparring, I expanded.

I wasn't arguing with your assertion. Just using it as a springboard.

Thanks however for anyone who might have needed the clarification.

They're welcome, I guess.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Interesting. Also, I found out it was my father (whom I obtain my BB at the same time) that taught it, so perhaps in my hiatus from training I simply forgot it. Which is strange to me, but I can not figure any other way why I'd do it differently than a person I came up through the ranks with.