Should the Govt. License MA Instructors?

[geezer]

I was reading a thread about fake certificates sold on Ebay, when Sandstorm posted that in UK, where he lives, the government licenses Martial Arts instruction. He was pretty surprised to hear that we could teach here in the States without government approval. He asked how it was possible that we can allow someone to teach skills that can be used to maim or kill without proper government oversight. After all, he asked, we license firearms, don't we?

Well, I was pretty surprised myself by the difference in approaches on each side of the pond. So you Brits --Just how does it work over there? And Yanks (including you Rebs down South) How do you like that idea? Shouldn't we legislate some good government oversight and have some responsible agency license us for what we do? Boy, that would sure fix things up, eh? What do you think?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

No.

 

[CoryKS]

No.

What he said.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Another government monopoly? No way. Who would set the standards? Who would pay for it? We don't need the bureaucrats telling us what can and can't be taught and who can teach it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Like many things, there are pros and cons. I don't feel that a simple 'yes' or 'no' really addresses the issue.

Municipal, county, and state regulation of various trades has been a fact of life for many years. Typically this is not seen as intrusive, and usually of benefit to the community.

Examples include barbers and hairdressers, skilled trades such as plumbers, electricians, and carpenters, private investigators, and public school teachers. All vary by jurisdiction, of course.

In some places, one may receive a 'license' by applying for it, perhaps submitting to a background check, and paying a fee. In some places, there are tests administered. In still others, private sanctioning bodies exist, which the government entity recognizes, and which members of said body are accepted and licensed by the government entity.

Professional licensing of the latter sort includes doctors, dentists, lawyers, veterinarians, and psychiatrists. It can include psychologists, chiropractors, marital and other types of counselors.

So licensing is not that unusual.

With regard to the pugilistic arts, most states license, regulate, and monitor professional boxing, and many are now beginning to accept professional MMA bouts as well. South Caroline is considering it now, Michigan has just accepted it, as well as a number of other states.

However, to the best of my knowledge, most states do not regulate the private teaching of martial arts. Anyone can hang out a shingle and teach whatever it is that they wish, even if they learned it out of a book or made it up out of whole cloth.

That leaves the risk for investigating such training centers strictly on the student, caveat emptor. Their sole remedy if they find themselves the recipients of faulty training - or worse - dangerous training - is limited to tort law (civil lawsuits).

Part of the problem with licensing, as I see it, is that there are no standard associations or organizations in the martial arts world. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of styles, and each of them feud and split off from each other with the regularity of certain Christian churches which will remain unnamed. Each lays claim to legitimacy and some deny that their other branches are valid - it is ugly.

Unlike, say, poker dealers, who are licensed, but they can take a test to prove they know their stuff - there is no one way to block a kick or punch, no standard anything, and therefore, no way to 'test' that an instructor can do what they say they can, let alone testing if they're capable of teaching it to others.

So why bother with licensing at all? It would be a nightmare, no doubt about it.

Well, one reason is because of the danger of physical injury. An ill-trained or ill-informed instructor can hurt students, or teach them unsafe training methods that could end in them hurting themselves. All well and good for adults, perhaps, who are supposed to know the risks going in, but for children, whose parents may simply assume that 'Sensei He-Man' knows what he is doing, after all, look at all those trophies and awards on the wall...

Here's a thought. How about licensing not the instructor, but the training facility - and treat it like a restaurant or tattoo parlor? That is, regulate it as if it were serving food or performing minor medical procedures - cleanliness, safety, and keeping track of injuries and requiring the training center to report any injuries to students during training. It doesn't prove that the instructor knows what they are teaching, but it might help to put the 'bad' MA centers out of business.

Anyway - in general, I'm not in favor of licensing and regulating things just to do it. If there is a problem, and if licensing and/or regulation provides a public benefit that can be defined, then I might be in favor of it. Frankly, I don't much care if barbers are licensed, because I cut my own hair. But I'd hate it if we didn't license electricians and I hired one to wire my new bonus room and it burned down a couple years later because he was an idiot and used the wrong guage wire, for example.

And with that, I'm off to the dojo.

 

[searcher]

No way, no how. The Gov. messes with our affairs enough, they need to keep their hands away from us and what we do. All it would be is another invitation to Socialism. We, teh MA community, are the ones who need to regulate each other by watching out for frauds. Not the Gov.

 

[astrobiologist]

That would just be another means of government interference. There are so many facets to martial arts training that the government has no business regulating. If I had to have governmental permission to teach martial arts, I would teach in secret, in the night, maybe using implements for weapons that the government wouldn't recognize as a weapon... Does this sound familiar to anyone? (think Okinawa, back when the samurai were less honorable clan members and were more hired thugs)

 

[MBuzzy]

Just because something is licensed by the government does not equal socialism or some big brother level of control. I know that many people feel that ANY oversight from the government is an intrinsically bad thing - but I don't think that is true. For example, as an Engineer, I am legally not allowed to work in my field without licensing or without oversight by a licensed Engineer. And EVERY person in the country should be happy about that fact. The licensing process for us, ensures that the buildings, roads, electrical systems, etc that we design are safe and correctly designed. Without this oversight, ANYONE could design a building no matter their level of knowledge.

So why not license Martial Arts? The skills that we teach are of danger to many people. We aren't discussing licensing anyone who practices martial arts, only those who teach it. This would ensure a much needed level of oversight to MA instruction. Right now, as others have said, anyone can teach. That is not necessarily a good thing as we are starting to really see. Without some kind of oversight, I fear that the entire MA industry may have problems in the future.

 

[MBuzzy]

That would just be another means of government interference. There are so many facets to martial arts training that the government has no business regulating. If I had to have governmental permission to teach martial arts, I would teach in secret, in the night, maybe using implements for weapons that the government wouldn't recognize as a weapon... Does this sound familiar to anyone? (think Okinawa, back when the samurai were less honorable clan members and were more hired thugs)

It does sound familiar, but that wasn't licensing, that was simply outlawing of the teaching of martial arts. There are plenty of problems with licensing such an eclectic field, but it would have benefits as well.

 

[geezer]

That would just be another means of government interference. There are so many facets to martial arts training that the government has no business regulating. If I had to have governmental permission to teach martial arts, I would teach in secret...

I was thinking about some of the stuff Bill talked about. As a public high school teacher I had to go back to school at night for a couple of years to get certified by the state (my bachelor's and three-year terminal graduate degree in my field wasn't enough, I guess), then I had to go through a background check and get fingerprinted (that 's actually a good idea) but I have to pay about fifty bucks to get re-fingerprinted about every six years (I guess those fingerprints just keep changing) and jump through various other kinds of bureaucratic hoops on a regular basis. In return, I have a fairly secure job with decent benefits. So it's my choice. No problem.

Now on the other hand, what about the private MA instructor. Who has the right to tell him what concepts he can teach? What if he teaches a very rare, little-known system? Or, if he left an established organization, for whatever reasons, to teach independently? Or, if he is an experienced martial artist who teaches his own synthesis of all that he has learned? These are not specious, hypothetical examples. Most of us know people like these. Should they be disqualified by some bureaucracy because they don't conform? A government agency may enforce health and safety codes. But can they tell you what you can and cannot teach? Such regulation would never get past a first amendment court challenge. It's a matter of free speech, ain't it?

 

[seasoned]

If they can tax it and make money off of it, it looks like a go.

 

[Archangel M]

Why not? Sounds like CHANGE to me. :uhyeah:

 

[artFling]

Just because something is licensed by the government does not equal socialism or some big brother level of control. I know that many people feel that ANY oversight from the government is an intrinsically bad thing - but I don't think that is true. For example, as an Engineer, I am legally not allowed to work in my field without licensing or without oversight by a licensed Engineer. And EVERY person in the country should be happy about that fact. The licensing process for us, ensures that the buildings, roads, electrical systems, etc that we design are safe and correctly designed. Without this oversight, ANYONE could design a building no matter their level of knowledge.

So why not license Martial Arts? The skills that we teach are of danger to many people. We aren't discussing licensing anyone who practices martial arts, only those who teach it. This would ensure a much needed level of oversight to MA instruction. Right now, as others have said, anyone can teach. That is not necessarily a good thing as we are starting to really see. Without some kind of oversight, I fear that the entire MA industry may have problems in the future.

But here's the deal; as a liscensed public school teacher, I can tell you that the government does nothing to ensure good teaching. In fact, they put their stamp of approval on many a person who does little to help students learn anything. The government doesn't know anything about teaching. On the other hand, an FBI background check is a good thing. And with martial arts in the news every other week for molesting students, I think FBI background checks are a must.

This is where an instructor's lineage is useful. Knowing that he or she learned from a reputable source helps.

That big certificate hanging on my instructor's wall, with about six signatures on it helps too.

If there is official certification, it needs to be done by a third party. Then again, who thinks the kukiwon does such a great job of assuring great Tae Kwon Do teaching?

It's a sticky wicket.

 

[mook jong man]

If my Sifu had the confidence in me to teach students 4 times a week for him for years and on one occasion I even taught students with the Grand Master sitting there quietly watching me . ( that was nerve racking ).

I was good enough for these two expert men so why should I need permission off some idiot government official who wouldn't know Wing Chun from a hole in the ground .

 

[terryl965]

Not just No but HELL NO!!!!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Like I've said before, it's the nature of goverment to control. Don't matter who is in power. It's the nature of the beast.

I would not be suprised if they try. They regulate an awful lot of businesses.

No, I don't like it, but I bet sooner or later they try.

Deaf

 

[Hand Sword]

Sounds like all of the ancient stories about the origin of the arts is trying to come around again? GOOD! This ticky tack stuff should get regulated. It will force the real stuff underground again as it did then, and maybe the true evolutionary process will start up again!

 

[wade]

Lets see, they made you license all your guns in England and then they outlawed them, can the martial arts be far behind?

So, being and instructor and an NRA member, hell no!

 

[Cryozombie]

For example, as an Engineer, I am legally not allowed to work in my field without licensing or without oversight by a licensed Engineer. And EVERY person in the country should be happy about that fact. The licensing process for us, ensures that the buildings, roads, electrical systems, etc that we design are safe and correctly designed. Without this oversight, ANYONE could design a building no matter their level of knowledge.

The problem with that is, things like Engineering, Medicine, Law, all have a standard they can be tested on. Book knowlage so to speak. What standard gets set for Martial Arts, and who does the regulating?

I get a job as a regulator, come and watch you perform to see if you can teach. Your Tang Soo Do looks nothing like my Bujinkan, so you are doing it wrong. Sorry no licence for you. Well, the standard could be physical fitness. Wait, that guy is old. No licence for him. Those Masters are fat, none for them either...

I just don't see how it could be practical, beyond paying a "fee" (ahem tax) to be licenced... I can't see how they could set a "standard", when the Martial arts are far from.

 

[girlbug2]

Exactly -- the problem is defining the standards for each style. We seem to have problems coming to a consensus among ourselves what those standards are, now imagine the gov't trying to step in and standardize a martial art -- highly laughable, if it wouldn't be so disastrous.

This would be the same gov't, mind you, that's done a great job setting the standards for public school teaching in California...