Should Off Duty Officers Carry Guns In Bars?

[Hudson69]

I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.

I pretty much agree to this and as an LEO I carry wherever I go; except the Airport because the TSA are the tools of evil:shrug:.

The emphasis here is training but to go with that requires common sense. As an LEO I have carried into bars and nightclubs but I do not partake at those times. Anyone who carries concealed needs to do so within the constraints of the law and use their brain. If you are going to drink don't carry (Murphy's Law says that this will be the time you need a gun but had you not carried it then Murphy would not have shown up).

If you want to CCW then do it but do it smart.

 

[Archangel M]

If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat.

Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.

 

[jks9199]

If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat.

Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.

I'm much the same way. I may (occasionally) have a beer or cocktail or a glass of wine with dinner. If I'm expecting to do much more than that -- I'll secure the gun. But one or two drinks over a couple of hours? Nah...

The real issue is simple responsibility. These cases show irresponsible behavior, and I'd bet that there are other examples of irresponsibility in these people's lives.

 

[Archangel M]

the real issue is simple responsibility. These cases show irresponsible behavior, and i'd bet that there are other examples of irresponsibility in these people's lives.

+1

 

[sgtmac_46]

You may call this tripe, but it is what they teach in criminal justice courses. Gunfight dynamics aside, you get to end the threat only. There are lots of people who are sitting in prison that lost site of that concept. Tripe as it may sound.
Sean

Name one person who was otherwise justified in shooting someone, who went to prison because they fired one round too many.

As for 'criminal justice courses' it kind of depends on who's teaching them........if it's an academic who's closest experience is what he read in a couple of journals, he's barely fit to discuss the issue, much less proclaim himself 'an expert'.

A 'criminal justice' degree is not a degree on use of force. A criminal justice degree means one has completed course material on a general and broad overview of the concept and theory of criminal justice.

Study of physical conflict dynamics is a whole specialized area of study.

In short, you'd be hardpressed to find someone who got in trouble for shooting someone 'too much'. Shooting them when not justified, yes.......shooting them 9 times when a jury thought that 8 would have done it? Not so much.

 

[sgtmac_46]

If I'm carrying at the restaurant w/ the family, one beer with dinner isn't going to result in me fighting with the guy in the next booth and firing wildly into the crowd of nuns waiting for a seat.

Going out for a night of pub crawling with the boys? Well thats a different story. Yeah I shouldn't be armed, but at my age and position even partaking of the activity would be ill advised.

Exactly.........I won't carry a gun if i'm going to drink a few.........that's what a knife is for.

 

[Mark Jordan]

Anyone carrying a gun should not be allowed inside a bar. Alcohol blurs judgment and it could lead to unwarranted aggression.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Exactly.........I won't carry a gun if i'm going to drink a few.........that's what a knife is for.

That was my point, if Alcohol effects me it should also effect an officer. if it is bad for me as it effect my judgement then so should it be bad for an officer. I agree one usually would not be an issue, (* Unless some medical issue or never been introduced to alcohol before *) but if the law says it is not right for me to mix alcohol and firearms, it should also work the same with an officer.

I support the officer having the priviledge to carry where others cannot.
I just think if they carry they also have the responsibility to stay sober and clean of drugs as well.

 

[Archangel M]

Im with the common sense argument. There are all sorts of substances out there that "could" impair judgement. Alcohol, perscriptions, over the counter medications, etc. If I have a cold and take a cold medication does that mean I can't carry? If I have one beer at dinner while out with the wife for dinner am I "setting a bad example"? I think the issue is one of common sense..my examples above I wouldn't make an issue about. An officer out drinking all night..or taking prescription meds that can "knock you out" are another matter. Just like driving. Me having one beer at a restaurant isnt going to be an issue with my driving home and I don't think thats a "bad example"...5-6 beers? Another story.

 

[jks9199]

One other thing... If you're carrying concealed -- nobody should know you're armed, so having one or two beers in a responsible manner shouldn't be a problem, especially as far as "setting an example."

 

[Kurai]

13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
sean

If people were more responsible with their alcohol intake, there likely wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. I'm fine with an officer carrying in a bar. I don't frequent bars (do my drinking at home), but would hope that common sense prevails.

 

[ballen0351]

13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
sean

I was in a shooting 5 years ago. A suspect puleld a gun on me. I fired 5 shots with a 40cal Glock. it took five shots center mass before the guy even drop the gun. Then after he dropped it he looked at me turned around and walked from his kitchen to his living room before he fell and died. Shooting is not like the movies you dont shoot someone and they go flying thru the air. If he had not dropped the gun I would have kept shooting until he did if it took 10 shots or 15 shots. At autopsy all 5 rounds were found in his heart and it was shredded. So to say1 or 2 shots is all you need is just an uneducated view point.

 

[ballen0351]

For us, departmental policy prohibits us from carrying in a bar. It, however, does not entirely prohibit from carrying in places that serve alcohol and have bars in them like Applebees, etc.

Alcohol and guns don't mix. If you have even one drink and have to use your firearm, you are facing a huge liability when defense attornies start putting seeds of doubt into people's minds about how many drinks you actually had and how impaired you might have been.

How do your undercover narcs like that policy?
Ive worked undercover now for the last 3 years I dress and look like a hard core biker and I go into bars and have to drink to fit in and I ALWAYS have a gun on me someplace. I dont get drunk but I buy alot of beers but ill sip on them dump them out in the bath rooms, set them down and walk away and buy a new one so it looks like Im drinking alot. Things like that but I do drink. Were allowed to drink 2 beers per hour while working an undercover capasity.
Off duty I dont go out much to bars I choose to stay home with my family but if I do go out I feel Im smart enough to know not to get blasted drunk so I ALWAY have a gun on me then too.

 

[punisher73]

How do your undercover narcs like that policy?
Ive worked undercover now for the last 3 years I dress and look like a hard core biker and I go into bars and have to drink to fit in and I ALWAYS have a gun on me someplace. I dont get drunk but I buy alot of beers but ill sip on them dump them out in the bath rooms, set them down and walk away and buy a new one so it looks like Im drinking alot. Things like that but I do drink. Were allowed to drink 2 beers per hour while working an undercover capasity.
Off duty I dont go out much to bars I choose to stay home with my family but if I do go out I feel Im smart enough to know not to get blasted drunk so I ALWAY have a gun on me then too.

We are a small enough department that we dont' have our own UC team. We do assign an officer to a joint team under the state police. I've never asked them about their policy, but to my knowledge of my friends that have been on the team they are armed at all times due to the danger.

 

[Bruno@MT]

********. The typical tripe spouted by people clueless about the dynamics of gunfights. A close brother to "shoot to wound..hit them in the leg or something". You shoot till the threat is no longer a threat, regardless of the number of rounds. Even if it means loading another magazine. The real issue is the justification for firing even one shot. Sounds like someone has seen too many movies where one shot is almost always immediately fatal.

Hey! It is for dirty harry!
And Chuck Norris would just toss a bullet in the air and roundhouse kick the bullet through the other guys chest, and anyone who happened to stand behind him.. So there!

But more seriously, I am a novice whenit comes to guns, but even I can see the sense in your words. Recently a policeman over here shot a guy armed with a BB gun. If you've seen them, you know how realistic they look. The only different is a red dot on the barrel, but in les than ideal circumstances, that is hard to spot.

The guy got flak because he was supposed to have seen that it was a toy, AND because he 'should have shot him in the leg'. Drivel like that. I guess he should have waited until shots were fired at him, and then shot him in the leg while hoping that would make him stop shooting.

Whatever.

 

[ballen0351]

We are a small enough department that we dont' have our own UC team. We do assign an officer to a joint team under the state police. I've never asked them about their policy, but to my knowledge of my friends that have been on the team they are armed at all times due to the danger.

Ive been there too I started out in a small 75 man department myself. Ive moved on to bigger department for better pay but I had some of the best times in the saller department you really learn to rely on yourself.

 

[Doc]

13 is excessive, even for a police officer. A normal person only gets to pull the trigger once or twice. Perhaps being intoxicated and having carrying a firearm should be against the law, but if the Bar wasn't overserving, there wouldn't have been a groping or a shooting. Police officers should be able to handle a weapon anywhere, provided thay aren't breaking the law to begin with.
sean

Excessive is something that is determined by the circumstances. There is no such thing as "unarmed" in any confrontation where there is a firearm present that has the potential to be controlled by either party. Furthermore, more people are killed by "unarmed" people with hands and feet than are stabbed to death in the U.S. Police are taught to fire until the threat is neutralized. Additionally, most police miss at a very high rate. I've seen suspects take multiple hits and keep on shooting. I had a suspect take a shotgun blast to the chest, go down and get up running away shooting, only to die a block away after he bled out and the adrenalin was gone. The press usually defaults to "how many shots were fired," not how many times a suspect is hit. Anyway, under duress, a person doesn't know how many shots they have fired. Without knowing ALL the circumstances it is not prudent to cast judgment. The policy should be to decide whether you want to drink or carry a gun, but not both no matter where you are for civilians and police alike.

 

[Steve]

Since this was necro'd, in my opinion many police officers shouldn't be carrying guns while on duty, much less off duty where it is otherwise prohibited. There's no reasonable justification for all police to carry weapons everywhere.

I've shared the accuracy reports that @Doc mentions above several times. To say that cops miss their target at an alarming rate is, if anything, an understatement.

 

[Martlet]

I believe all honest people who want to have some control of their own safety should in fact train regularly, and carry a gun everywhere they go period. Law enforcement or not.

This. Bingo

 

[drop bear]

So do bouncers get guns to deal with all these drunks who have guns?