Shotokan for self defence.

[Paul_D]

That's a good starting point. But was Hiagonna sensei just saying that to sound relevant? If he was able to show some of throwing, joint locking, and choking, was it standing or on the ground? Was it one of few often overlooked techniques in goju? If it's so common, can you link some video? I'm learning here and just asking questions, hopefully I'm coming off as to smarmy

No, your not mate, don't worry

Here Iain Abernethy explains that the "jump" in Pinan Godan (which is often interpreted as someone jumping a katana ) is in fact a way of preventing your opponent from spinning out of the joint lock that is being applied.

Pinan Godan Heian Godan Throw video Iain Abernethy

There are other examples (just as there are other alternate explanations for these same moves). But we know from the writings of the old masters that ground fighting was originally in there somewhere. Unfortunately it has been lost to a large degree now karate focuses mainly on block/kick/punch, so it becomes difficulty process of practically minded people like Iain, and others, trying to "reverse engineer" the information back out of the kata.

 

[Zero]

That's a good starting point. But was Hiagonna sensei just saying that to sound relevant? If he was able to show some of throwing, joint locking, and choking, was it standing or on the ground? Was it one of few often overlooked techniques in goju? If it's so common, can you link some video? I'm learning here and just asking questions, hopefully I'm coming off as to smarmy

Yeah, I am not saying I am leaning either way on this one but as always, it's hard to tell from a book and potentially hearsay on the behalf of Hiagonna (to the extent he was simply relating what he was told by Kano) if Kano was simply being polite on this matter. Was Hiagonna actually present when Miyagi was giving examples to Kano?

 

[Zero]

Could you provide some evidence of this?

Yes, the evidence is in abundance Hanzou, please simply refer to any kata. It is there for those who know what they are looking for and for those that have been trained accordingly.

 

[Hanzou]

The thing is, does MMA provide you with an answer for avoiding that situation in the first place?
Seems to be the key question that needs to be answered here.

I don't see why it wouldn't.

 

[Paul_D]

A bit more info that may help:-

Karate Grappling Did It Really Exist Iain Abernethy

Karate s Grappling Methods Amazon.co.uk Iain Stuart Abernethy Peter Skillen 9780953893201 Books

 

[Hanzou]

No, your not mate, don't worry

Here Iain Abernethy explains that the "jump" in Pinan Godan (which is often interpreted as someone jumping a katana ) is in fact a way of preventing your opponent from spinning out of the joint lock that is being applied.

Pinan Godan Heian Godan Throw video Iain Abernethy

There are other examples (just as there are other alternate explanations for these same moves). But we know from the writings of the old masters that ground fighting was originally in there somewhere. Unfortunately it has been lost to a large degree now karate focuses mainly on block/kick/punch, so it becomes difficulty process of practically minded people like Iain, and others, trying to "reverse engineer" the information back out of the kata.

Isn't that the same Abernethy who said that Karate grappling was "crude" and not even close to the grappling you see in Judo/Bjj/Wrestling?

Yes, the evidence is in abundance Hanzou, please simply refer to any kata. It is there for those who know what they are looking for and for those that have been trained accordingly.

Really? Evidence of ground fighting in every single kata? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The way I try to think of it is, should I get attacked or involved in a fight, and the other person is trained in martial arts or fighting, which is probably highly unlikely, then it would be the best disciplined who would come out on top most probably.

I think this is mostly becasue they mistake fighting, MA and SD for the same thing, not realising that not only are they vastly different, but in some cases the skills learnt to be successful in one field can be the exact opposite of the skills required to be successful in the other.

Really? Old people don't get attacked by people that want to "fight" them, women don't get attacked by men that want to "fight" them. Fighting is only crucial to SD if fighting is the most likely form of violence you will face (i.e if you are male aged 18-30).

Men, particularity young men, tend to focus on fighting as it is the most likely form of violence they will face. But for the rest of us it is extremely unlikely. Other area's of violence are much more likely and so fighting is far from crucial for most people as for most people fights are not the form of violence they are most likely to face.

I agree that deescalation and awareness are key factors to a good self defense strategy. but these are non martial components of self defense.

The video shows two in a grappling situation. Yes at this point a good ground fighting skill would be a good skill to have. What happen prior to getting to this point? What skill set would have been better? How about an ability to defuse the situation? What was the argument about? What happen for the situation to get to the point of the two subjects struggling on the ground? Were there other skills that could have been utilized prior to it becoming a struggle on the ground? Could the skill sets developed from a karate training background have been effective prior to flopping on the ground?

This is interesting...I would acknowledge that the modern approach to SD/situational awareness may well be different and of course suited to the "modern" environment or societal "norms". But why would not traditional arts going back many years, even many centuries, not contain or at least have ancillary training or discussion on diffusion and avoidance?

Okay, I think I need to address a dirty little secret of the relation between martial arts training and real world violence.

Most martial arts training is in some way or form related to developing ability in fighting. The context for that fighting may vary (archaic sword duels, modern ring fighting, "street" violence, theatrical fighting, etc) and there may be additional claimed objectives (fitness, "discipline", etc), but to some degree we all think we are learning how to fight.

The secret is this - once you get away from the "social" violence whereby individuals (mostly young men) try to establish their dominance or release excess testosterone in one-on-one clashes, the outcome of most violence is not settled by individual fighting skill. In most violence, the winner is the side which successfully deploys surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry. Regardless of whether you are a mugger selecting a victim, police officers arresting a suspect, or an infantry platoon assaulting an enemy fortification, you aren't looking for a fair fight. In fact, you don't want there to be a fight at all. You want the outcome to be determined before the encounter begins.

It's technically possible to prevail by means of superior fighting skill and spirit if you are outnumbered, out-armed, and caught by surprise, but it's not a high-percentage proposition, no matter how good you are. If you manage to survive and get away in that situation, then you are doing well.

What this means for self-defense is that 95% of the job is in a) steering clear of the temptations to engage in avoidable social violence and b) having the awareness to make sure that surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry are not used against you (and are preferably on your side). It doesn't hurt to have some actual fighting ability for when everything else goes wrong, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.

 

[Danny T]

What this means for self-defense is that 95% of the job is in a) steering clear of the temptations to engage in avoidable social violence and b) having the awareness to make sure that surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry are not used against you (and are preferably on your side). It doesn't hurt to have some actual fighting ability for when everything else goes wrong, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.

Yeap!!!
Thanks Tony.

 

[Drose427]

I don't see why it wouldn't.

Well...for one in MMA your goal, in the simplest terms, is to go up and hit the guy.

For SD Awareness and de-escalation you've already failed at that point

Isn't that the same Abernethy who said that Karate grappling was "crude" and not even close to the grappling you see in Judo/Bjj/Wrestling?



Really? Evidence of ground fighting in every single kata? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

If you would have had a good instructor, you wouldn't.

Nobodies claiming its as in depth as BJJ or Judo, but it is there.

 

[Hanzou]

Well...for one in MMA your goal, in the simplest terms, is to go up and hit the guy.

For SD Awareness and de-escalation you've already failed at that point

You do know that there are people who practice MMA for self defense right?

If you would have had a good instructor, you wouldn't.

Nobodies claiming its as in depth as BJJ or Judo, but it is there.

If there's such an abundance of good instructors teaching this, we should see more evidence of it outside of "go look in the Kata and decipher the movements". We should be seeing Karatekas performing ground fighting on some level somewhere. Perhaps even competing against more established grappling styles.

That's not what we see though.

 

[Zero]

I don't see why it wouldn't.

Come on, have you in your mma classes, or in any mma you have witnessed, focused on situational awareness on the street, de-escalation of confrontations, scoping of environment to assess exit ways etc? Are you saying you have or are you saying you simply don't see why it wouldn't, in that you don't really know?

 

[Zero]

You do know that there are people who practice MMA for self defense right?

Yes but as said by Drose, do you have situational awareness and de-escalation training in mma training? Please answer

 

[Zero]

Okay, I think I need to address a dirty little secret of the relation between martial arts training and real world violence.

Most martial arts training is in some way or form related to developing ability in fighting. The context for that fighting may vary (archaic sword duels, modern ring fighting, "street" violence, theatrical fighting, etc) and there may be additional claimed objectives (fitness, "discipline", etc), but to some degree we all think we are learning how to fight.

The secret is this - once you get away from the "social" violence whereby individuals (mostly young men) try to establish their dominance or release excess testosterone in one-on-one clashes, the outcome of most violence is not settled by individual fighting skill. In most violence, the winner is the side which successfully deploys surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry. Regardless of whether you are a mugger selecting a victim, police officers arresting a suspect, or an infantry platoon assaulting an enemy fortification, you aren't looking for a fair fight. In fact, you don't want there to be a fight at all. You want the outcome to be determined before the encounter begins.

It's technically possible to prevail by means of superior fighting skill and spirit if you are outnumbered, out-armed, and caught by surprise, but it's not a high-percentage proposition, no matter how good you are. If you manage to survive and get away in that situation, then you are doing well.

What this means for self-defense is that 95% of the job is in a) steering clear of the temptations to engage in avoidable social violence and b) having the awareness to make sure that surprise, intimidation, superior positioning, superior numbers, and superior weaponry are not used against you (and are preferably on your side). It doesn't hurt to have some actual fighting ability for when everything else goes wrong, but that shouldn't be your primary concern.

Yes, that was my point. Why would a skilled fighter of yester-year not be interested in situational awareness, environmental assessment etc, so he can avoid being jumped by the local back-alley bandaits to the best of his abilities and go on to live a long and fruitful life plying his martial arts wares to the rich kids of the local governor?

 

[Hanzou]

Come on, have you in your mma classes, or in any mma you have witnessed, focused on situational awareness on the street, de-escalation of confrontations, scoping of environment to assess exit ways etc? Are you saying you have or are you saying you simply don't see why it wouldn't, in that you don't really know?

\Urban Warriors Academy MMA Gym London Krav Maga London The importance of Situational Awareness - Urban Warriors Academy - MMA Gym London Krav Maga London

Classes - Costa Mesa BJJ - Costa Mesa MMAJiu Jitsu Orange County BJJ Orange County Costa Mesa BJJ

 

[Drose427]

You do know that there are people who practice MMA for self defense right?



If there's such an abundance of good instructors teaching this, we should see more evidence of it outside of "go look in the Kata and decipher the movements". We should be seeing Karatekas performing ground fighting on some level somewhere. Perhaps even competing against more established grappling styles.

That's not what we see though.

All 6 of the MMA/Boxing gyms in my area claim to teach self defense, but outside of SD focused BJJ none of the guys I've worked with from any other general MMA training for the cage. They had no grasp of awareness and de-escalation, none of the "make a note of everyone you see in a room and have a way to kill them" style awareness thinking.

The gyms that do this are a minority.

A lot of Karateka do more groundfighting in their SD, I personally do Armbars and chokes with my takedowns. As does many of the instructors in my area, both in our association and a neighboring style.

Why would they go to a competition with accomplished grapplers with the little groundwork and grappling Karate does give? Are Judoka gonna start coming to Point Karate tournaments now too?

 

[Zero]

Really? Evidence of ground fighting in every single kata? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Yeah, you got me there Hanzou, I put in the smiley so you could tell I was yanking your chain!!...that said, I am told it is in some of it. I am a goju ryu guy, I love to fight and love karate but only have a rudimental ability and understanding of kata at best so am the last to talk in depth on it!

 

[Zero]

\Urban Warriors Academy MMA Gym London Krav Maga London The importance of Situational Awareness - Urban Warriors Academy - MMA Gym London Krav Maga London

OK, so that was an article on the website, which is nice to see. But I couldn't see anything on curriculum on the website and/or if SD and these concepts are trained in at the actual club. So question the value of that to support your claim. Again, do you focus on this at your club, or have you actually witnessed this at other mma clubs? Next please.

 

[Hanzou]

All 6 of the MMA/Boxing gyms in my area claim to teach self defense, but outside of SD focused BJJ none of the guys I've worked with from any other general MMA training for the cage. They had no grasp of awareness and de-escalation, none of the "make a note of everyone you see in a room and have a way to kill them" style awareness thinking.

The gyms that do this are a minority.

A lot of Karateka do more groundfighting in their SD, I personally do Armbars and chokes with my takedowns. As does many of the instructors in my area, both in our association and a neighboring style.

Why would they go to a competition with accomplished grapplers with the little groundwork and grappling Karate does give? Are Judoka gonna start coming to Point Karate tournaments now too?

I'm not the one claiming that Judokas are strikers here.

If your claim is that there is a competent level of grappling and ground fighting in karate, then karate should be competitive with the other grappling styles out there. If it isn't, then that means that it isn't widely taught, or refined on any reasonable level, and really shouldn't be brought up when we discuss the importance of grappling/ground fighting in a SD situation.

Again, this all goes back to my earlier argument that Karate attempts to be all things to all people.

 

[RTKDCMB]

\Urban Warriors Academy MMA Gym London Krav Maga London The importance of Situational Awareness - Urban Warriors Academy - MMA Gym London Krav Maga London

Classes - Costa Mesa BJJ - Costa Mesa MMAJiu Jitsu Orange County BJJ Orange County Costa Mesa BJJ

I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of the situational awareness training comes from the Krav Maga instructors:

Urban Warriors Academy MMA Gym London Krav Maga London Our Coaches Mixed Martial Arts London

 

[Drose427]

I'm not the one claiming that Judokas are strikers here.

If your claim is that there is a competent level of grappling and ground fighting in karate, then karate should be competitive with the other grappling styles out there. If it isn't, then that means that it isn't widely taught, or refined on any reasonable level, and really shouldn't be brought up when we discuss the importance of grappling/ground fighting in a SD situation.

Again, this all goes back to my earlier argument that Karate attempts to be all things to all people.

Nor have we claimed that Karateka are astounding grapplers. Basic level of grappling will never fly in a competitive environment.

You're the only one claiming Karate Grappling to be on the same level as Judo or BJJ. Wrestling isnt as refined or complex as Judo or BJJ, should it not be discussed for SD either?