Shotokan for self defence.

[Mephisto]

Can anyone explain why Funakoshi founded Shotokan? I think I know why it was created but I think its worth looking at. I think the origins and purpose behind an art have a lot to do with its effectiveness for a given purpose. If we use an art that was designed for fitness and dissemination for self defense we are not using it for its primary intended purpose.

 

[Grenadier]

I'm dismissive of it because I feel that training time can be better utilized elsewhere. Your videos showcasing nonsensical bunkai only confirms that opinion. No one is going to come at you in a deep front stance, performing a reverse punch. People fight in narrow stances in order to remain mobile, which is why double leg takedowns are so effective.

I am very surprised that you made this kind of an assertion, especially considering that you claimed a nidan ranking from an authentic JKA dojo. At the Shodan level, just about any adult holding that ranking has a better understanding of how using deep stances are meant to strengthen the muscles of the lower body, and to teach the practitioner how to utilize the lower body as the main power source to drive the upper body's techniques.

When the body (and mechanics) are properly conditioned over time, when it comes time to throw a punch from a narrower stance, that punch will be significantly more powerful than one thrown by someone who hasn't practiced those mechanics, and conditioned the body.

It's basically the same reason why those who lift weights go through the full motions when lifting. Think of it this way...

Who is going to benefit from the bench press more? The person who starts with the weights at the chest level and lifts it to full extension of the arms, or the person who starts with his arms extended already, and only lifts the weights about 12 inches instead? Even though the latter may look more "practical" in the real world, it won't help the person nearly as much compared to the former when it comes to increasing overall strength.

Will the former allow a 150 pound beanpole to be stronger than a 250 pound individual built like a brick outhouse? Of course not, but neither would the latter. He would, though, certainly have better muscle development using the former, than the latter. It's all about developing his own self so that he comes closer to his potential, instead of comparing him to the next guy.

Personally, 30 minutes of hard, full contact sparring against a variety of opponents would be a better use of training time than 30 minutes doing pre-arranged patterns from the 1920s.

And how long could you continue to practice in such a way? You can't stay young forever. Joints become less flexible, bones become more brittle, and well-developed muscles deteriorate over time as we get older.

I would encourage you to look at your old notes from your days of Shotokan training. For that matter, you may want to have a chat with your old sensei about this subject.

Many of the JKA seniors have written articles about how the "old methods" of training continue to thrive in today's society, since they can be practiced for many a decade, and the practitioner will not see any dropoff in his technique when relying on good bodily mechanics and fundamental technique, instead of sheer brawn and athleticism.

If you get a chance, I'd also recommend some of the books written by Enoeda Sensei, who was quite well-known for his amazing punching power, even as he grew old. They can provide a very nice insight into the methods.

 

[Tez3]

Can anyone explain why Funakoshi founded Shotokan? I think I know why it was created but I think its worth looking at. I think the origins and purpose behind an art have a lot to do with its effectiveness for a given purpose. If we use an art that was designed for fitness and dissemination for self defense we are not using it for its primary intended purpose.

I'm not Shotokan, my style is Wado Ryu but I found this from a Shotokan site, it may explain his thoughts, I think most writing about Funakoshi are the same as this though.
Gichin Funakoshi - Founder of Shotokan Karate

 

[drop bear]

I am very surprised that you made this kind of an assertion, especially considering that you claimed a nidan ranking from an authentic JKA dojo. At the Shodan level, just about any adult holding that ranking has a better understanding of how using deep stances are meant to strengthen the muscles of the lower body, and to teach the practitioner how to utilize the lower body as the main power source to drive the upper body's techniques.

When the body (and mechanics) are properly conditioned over time, when it comes time to throw a punch from a narrower stance, that punch will be significantly more powerful than one thrown by someone who hasn't practiced those mechanics, and conditioned the body.

It's basically the same reason why those who lift weights go through the full motions when lifting. Think of it this way...

Who is going to benefit from the bench press more? The person who starts with the weights at the chest level and lifts it to full extension of the arms, or the person who starts with his arms extended already, and only lifts the weights about 12 inches instead? Even though the latter may look more "practical" in the real world, it won't help the person nearly as much compared to the former when it comes to increasing overall strength.

Will the former allow a 150 pound beanpole to be stronger than a 250 pound individual built like a brick outhouse? Of course not, but neither would the latter. He would, though, certainly have better muscle development using the former, than the latter. It's all about developing his own self so that he comes closer to his potential, instead of comparing him to the next guy.



And how long could you continue to practice in such a way? You can't stay young forever. Joints become less flexible, bones become more brittle, and well-developed muscles deteriorate over time as we get older.

I would encourage you to look at your old notes from your days of Shotokan training. For that matter, you may want to have a chat with your old sensei about this subject.

Many of the JKA seniors have written articles about how the "old methods" of training continue to thrive in today's society, since they can be practiced for many a decade, and the practitioner will not see any dropoff in his technique when relying on good bodily mechanics and fundamental technique, instead of sheer brawn and athleticism.

If you get a chance, I'd also recommend some of the books written by Enoeda Sensei, who was quite well-known for his amazing punching power, even as he grew old. They can provide a very nice insight into the methods.

Ha...

That's what i said.

 

[Grenadier]

Can anyone explain why Funakoshi founded Shotokan? I think I know why it was created but I think its worth looking at. I think the origins and purpose behind an art have a lot to do with its effectiveness for a given purpose. If we use an art that was designed for fitness and dissemination for self defense we are not using it for its primary intended purpose.

Funakoshi Sensei was simply a fellow who wanted to teach Karate his way, and spread it to the masses. It wasn't until much later, that his own students named the system "Shotokan" after his pen name of "Shoto."

His teachings of Karate were significantly in line with what his Sensei, Itosu Anko, believed, and certainly helped promote the teaching of Karate to the masses, not just a select few. Itosu Sensei's belief was that the practitioner alone, was the one who decided what to do with his martial arts knowledge, and I would feel comfortable guessing that Funakoshi Sensei held a similar belief. For example, if someone wanted to use it to better his health, then that was his choice to make.

 

[Hanzou]

I am very surprised that you made this kind of an assertion, especially considering that you claimed a nidan ranking from an authentic JKA dojo. At the Shodan level, just about any adult holding that ranking has a better understanding of how using deep stances are meant to strengthen the muscles of the lower body, and to teach the practitioner how to utilize the lower body as the main power source to drive the upper body's techniques.

I understand perfectly why they do it. I was pointing out that in the "bunkai" they were using deep stances and shotokan techniques.

And how long could you continue to practice in such a way? You can't stay young forever. Joints become less flexible, bones become more brittle, and well-developed muscles deteriorate over time as we get older.

MT and Boxing guys practice like that for years.

I would encourage you to look at your old notes from your days of Shotokan training. For that matter, you may want to have a chat with your old sensei about this subject.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I have little interest in revisiting Shotokan or karate in general.

 

[Danny T]

Can anyone explain why Funakoshi founded Shotokan? I think I know why it was created but I think its worth looking at. I think the origins and purpose behind an art have a lot to do with its effectiveness for a given purpose. If we use an art that was designed for fitness and dissemination for self defense we are not using it for its primary intended purpose.

Funakoshi did not found Shotokan Karate. Shotokan was the name his students gave to his training hall. What he did found was Shotokai. Shotokai was the association of all those who trained Karate-do in the Shotokan (the training hall). Funakoshi called what he taught Karate-do Kyohan.
In 1949 Isao Obata, one of his students, developed what would be the largest karate organization in the world, the Japanese Karate Association (Kyokai) and started doing competitions. Upon Funakoshi's death the Kyokai separated from the Shotokai organization and it was this Koyokai style that became known as Shotokan and grew through the promoted competitions (something frowned on and forbidden by Funakoshi).
Funakoshi 'did not' found Shotokan as a style of karate-do.

 

[Drose427]

MT and Boxing guys practice like that for years.

I grew up in Boxing gyms. Visit one and work with boxers and kickboxers now. I've never heard of or seen anyone in their 60s-70, sparring hard full contact for 30 minutes. The Gentlemen of that age from various styles I have sparred, can only go for a round or two at the most like that and they feel it later on.

The guys that are training at that age arent doing a lot of full contact sparring anymore

 

[Mephisto]

Funakoshi did not found Shotokan Karate. Shotokan was the name his students gave to his training hall. What he did found was Shotokai. Shotokai was the association of all those who trained Karate-do in the Shotokan (the training hall). Funakoshi called what he taught Karate-do Kyohan.
In 1949 Isao Obata, one of his students, developed what would be the largest karate organization in the world, the Japanese Karate Association (Kyokai) and started doing competitions. Upon Funakoshi's death the Kyokai separated from the Shotokai organization and it was this Koyokai style that became known as Shotokan and grew through the promoted competitions (something frowned on and forbidden by Funakoshi).
Funakoshi 'did not' found Shotokan as a style of karate-do.

Weather you want to say Funakoshi founded the art or weather the art simply followed in his tradition. What was the purpose behind the art? Why did he frown on competition? If his focus was anything other than self defense wouldn't that also mean that Shotokan isn't meant to be for or about self defense primarily? Some self defense skill may be a benefit of the training but if self defense isn't the intended primary purpose than perhaps if some has self defense as their primary goal they should seek out another art.

I grew up in Boxing gyms. Visit one and work with boxers and kickboxers now. I've never heard of or seen anyone in their 60s-70, sparring hard full contact for 30 minutes. The Gentlemen of that age from various styles I have sparred, can only go for a round or two at the most like that and they feel it later on.

The guys that are training at that age arent doing a lot of full contact sparring anymore

I have, I don't know how many rounds they go but I've heard of old timers stepping up from time to time to spar, and I've heard some have done very well too. The difference in boxing is that most acknowledge that age and time in a system don't equate to unstoppable skill. Old timers are respected but not worshipped as an unstoppable fighter. In many non competitiove systems students feel they can't even come close to the skill of their aging masters and wouldn't dare challenge them. There is no lying in boxing and competitive arts because the ring and competition presents the truth, and surprise the old timers aren't the most efficient fighters and competitors, but they certainly are valued and respected. Here's a video of one such respectable old timer, the young guy underestimated him and payed for it. A few rounds might show a different outcome but here, the old guy shows he's not to be underestimated.

 

[Danny T]

Weather you want to say Funakoshi founded the art or weather the art simply followed in his tradition. What was the purpose behind the art? Why did he frown on competition? If his focus was anything other than self defense wouldn't that also mean that Shotokan isn't meant to be for or about self defense primarily? Some self defense skill may be a benefit of the training but if self defense isn't the intended primary purpose than perhaps if some has self defense as their primary goal they should seek out another art.

It isn't whether I want to say Funakoshi founded the art or whether the art followed in his tradition.
It is he didn't found it was a student who broke off from what Funakoshi was teaching. Not only did they incorporate sparring and competition they changed the manner they did kata. Funakoshi's Karate-do was all about self-defense and personal development. Not competition.

At Funakoshi's death in 1957, his students split into several factions: on one side was the Nihon Karate Kyokai -the Japan Karate Association and on another side was the Shotokai Association.

The Shotokai Association is the group of students who continued to train in the Shotokan training hall and it has a defined practice method now known as Shotokai Karate. (Funakoshi call karate; Karate-do. All karate was to him Karate.) Shotokai continued to train in the manner Funakoshi taught Karate-do. Crisp flowing kata and a self-defense mindset whereas the JKA - Shotokan group uses hard, quick, sharp movements and positions in its katas and trains for Kata and sparring competitions yet maintaining some self-defense aspects.What is known as Shotokan Karate today is not the same Karate-do Funakoshi taught.

 

[Hanzou]

LoL! That vid is awesome. That kid got exactly what was coming to him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I have, I don't know how many rounds they go but I've heard of old timers stepping up from time to time to spar, and I've heard some have done very well too.

Plenty of senior citizen boxers and kickboxers can still fight and spar very well. The claim was that they don't regularly incorporate 30 minute sessions of hard sparring into their training because it takes too much of a toll on a body that doesn't heal so fast anymore. I'd say that's pretty accurate.

 

[Danny T]

At 60 I still train and practice 6 days a week. I spar lightly several rounds and go hard for a couple every week. I also am very discriminating as to who I spar with and how we spar because of the toll, injuries, and healing time. I've also got to instruct several sessions a week as well as holding pads coaching several fighters for numerous rounds everyday.

 

[Flying Crane]

I appreciate the suggestion, but I have little interest in revisiting Shotokan or karate in general.

Clearly that is not true. Otherwise you would not keep coming onto threads like this one. You would actually let it go and be done.

 

[Hanzou]

Clearly that is not true. Otherwise you would not keep coming onto threads like this one. You would actually let it go and be done.

This thread was directed at me by the OP, that's why I'm here.

Thanks for your participation.

 

[Flying Crane]

This thread was directed at me by the OP, that's why I'm here.

Thanks for your participation.

It's not just this thread. It's the one that lead to this thread, and all the others. Thanks for your participation.

 

[tshadowchaser]

gentlemen please refrain from trading jabs at each other.

 

[Buka]

We are all such passionate artists. See how that sounds different without the word "martial" included?

And yet....we all continue to go to class, day in, day out. We all get home and moan because this hurts, that hurts, this got tweaked, that got hit, wrenched, crushed or twisted.

Damn, we're all fricken' nuts.

 

[Hanzou]

It's not just this thread. It's the one that lead to this thread, and all the others. Thanks for your participation.

And those threads are how many months old by now?

Again, I wouldn't be in this thread if someone hadn't decided to direct it towards me.

 

[Flying Crane]

And those threads are how many months old by now?

Again, I wouldn't be in this thread if someone hadn't decided to direct it towards me.

Don't believe that for a moment.