*grin* He does not own a computer.
Shorinjin Saito-Ryu Ninjitsu
- Thread starter Cthulhu
- Start date
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Again, the issue of incorrect foreign language use rears its ugly head.
We appear to need to be reminded yet again that languages whose words are represented by pictographs cannot be adequately represented in non-pictogrpahic languages unless the phonetic of those pictographs is somehow transliterated into that other language.
Methods of transliteration must make use of the graphic representation of that language's specific sounds and tones to adequately transliterate the foreign language phonetics into an understandable format.
I have previously posted the vowel sounds used in Japanese, and the English letters used to represent those sounds. The correct and accepted method of using English letters with Japanese sounds is called Romaji, and it has certain rules for its proper use.
The word "nin" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. The word "jutsu" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. Further, the word "jitsu" has still yet another character (kanji) to convey its meaning, and so on.
So my question is, simply, which kanji are being used to write the word "ninjItsu?"
I went here to do some research on the kanji in the transliterated words in question. The first kanji does not, in its Chinese meanings (or in the Japanese meanings from what I know), mean "man" as stated upthread. The character represents a blade in the heart and carries the meaning of endurance. The second kanji for that of "jutsu," represents proceeding down a road and carries the meaning of a path or method for doing something. The disputed kanji of "jitsu" is unknown to me in appearance or Chinese pronunciation, so I am unable at this time to research its specific implications. It strikes me, however, that given the predilection for 90% of people who claim to use Chinese or Japanese terms for their own meanings to get their meanings completely wrong, that the translation being cited as an alternate translation (i.e. "the art of understanding human behavior" as opposed to "the art of 'endurance'" of the Japanese ninja) is also fully erroneous and based on a lame defense for the use of incorrect transliteration...
It'd be so much easier to just identify what kanji are being used, and then use the correct transliteration rather than adhering to such a weak argument to support the misuse and misspelling in question.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
We appear to need to be reminded yet again that languages whose words are represented by pictographs cannot be adequately represented in non-pictogrpahic languages unless the phonetic of those pictographs is somehow transliterated into that other language.
Methods of transliteration must make use of the graphic representation of that language's specific sounds and tones to adequately transliterate the foreign language phonetics into an understandable format.
I have previously posted the vowel sounds used in Japanese, and the English letters used to represent those sounds. The correct and accepted method of using English letters with Japanese sounds is called Romaji, and it has certain rules for its proper use.
The word "nin" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. The word "jutsu" has a certain character (kanji) used to convey the meaning inherent in that word. Further, the word "jitsu" has still yet another character (kanji) to convey its meaning, and so on.
So my question is, simply, which kanji are being used to write the word "ninjItsu?"
I went here to do some research on the kanji in the transliterated words in question. The first kanji does not, in its Chinese meanings (or in the Japanese meanings from what I know), mean "man" as stated upthread. The character represents a blade in the heart and carries the meaning of endurance. The second kanji for that of "jutsu," represents proceeding down a road and carries the meaning of a path or method for doing something. The disputed kanji of "jitsu" is unknown to me in appearance or Chinese pronunciation, so I am unable at this time to research its specific implications. It strikes me, however, that given the predilection for 90% of people who claim to use Chinese or Japanese terms for their own meanings to get their meanings completely wrong, that the translation being cited as an alternate translation (i.e. "the art of understanding human behavior" as opposed to "the art of 'endurance'" of the Japanese ninja) is also fully erroneous and based on a lame defense for the use of incorrect transliteration...
It'd be so much easier to just identify what kanji are being used, and then use the correct transliteration rather than adhering to such a weak argument to support the misuse and misspelling in question.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
I guess both the LA Times and NY Times give the definitive pronunciation/Romanization for Japanese words .now I can get rid off all my expensive Eng/Jap Dictionaries.
Don, at the risk of circularity. You make me LMAO! You, of all people, worried about nasty and off the mark comments! Ha! Have you somehow forgotten all the posts you have made that are "nasty". Would you like me to start cutting and pasting so that you can be reminded. You are so INCREDIBLY arrogant. Wow. "That seems a rather cheap shot considering that we all know that A, hatsumi does not speak or read English, B, he does not even own a computer and C, he has not registered at Martialarttalk.com. Phelps did and posted once. Now he does not seem to be able to answer questions directed at him. So yes, it looks extremely suspicious, and your comment about Hatsumi is also fairly off the mark"
How does this seem like a cheap shot? Because its YOUR Sensei. We ALL know how Hatsumis' credentials, lineage, and authenticity have been attacked, re-attacked, and scrutinized. We also ALL know that MANY in Japan laugh at him and view him has a fraud. That MANY think his claims are false, etc. etc. Why is he not on these boards defending himself? I know, because he doesnt have a computer. Hmm. Maybe its because he doesnt give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks. Does that make him a coward? Does that mean he has retreated behind the skirts of his students? I dont think so.
"Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself"
my point. exactly Don. You are in Japan. You hold the highest ranking the Japanese Government gives in the language. (we know this because you often let us know) Why have you not, after all this, talked to the Boss? Hmmm, maybe your credibility is now in question. Maybe you are the one "retreating"
However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go."
OK Don, lets compare and contrast.
"AFAIK, none of his other claims seem to pan out. CIA can not confirm his story because it is "too secret" according to them. (Well, if it was secret, why are they talking aboutit?) No one I trust has yet to say they can confirm the stories about Vietnam, Special Forces, CIA case officer, etc.
But what gets me about the pictures is that huge gong they have. Is that really a part of Asian MA practice? Maybe it is a Chinese thing. In some dojos in Japan I have seen Taiko drums, but I can't think of seeing a gong in a dojo. Is it maybe Okinawan, like the sais, nunchakus and such he uses?
I just get this weird thought in my head (I am probably dating myself) of some poor guy trying to show off his kata for the class, only to have to leave the stage after Jamie Farr gongs him."
Crass, did you say. Lets go back in the thread and see where we (Saitos) were brought into it.....
"Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!
BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. "
Wow, isnt that intresting. YOU brought it up so that you could talk about it some more.
Crass huh.
Don, you are truly ridiculous sometimes. The disrespect you show people is truly incredible. I will say it again. You talk smack about people you really dont know any thing about and expect their respect for your opinion. In my opinion, I dont think you have learned anything about the TRUE ART in your entire MA career. Things like HUMILITY, RESPECT, KINDNESS, FIELTY. You PURPOSELY try to get a flame war going on this subject, then when you get one, EVERY BODY ELSE is "CRASS" You should take some advice from my departed Grandfather: " If you wake up and realize that everybody is an @$$ but you, you should look in a mirror"
__________________
How does this seem like a cheap shot? Because its YOUR Sensei. We ALL know how Hatsumis' credentials, lineage, and authenticity have been attacked, re-attacked, and scrutinized. We also ALL know that MANY in Japan laugh at him and view him has a fraud. That MANY think his claims are false, etc. etc. Why is he not on these boards defending himself? I know, because he doesnt have a computer. Hmm. Maybe its because he doesnt give a rat's @$$ what anybody thinks. Does that make him a coward? Does that mean he has retreated behind the skirts of his students? I dont think so.
"Basically, "who?" I did not ask the question myself"
my point. exactly Don. You are in Japan. You hold the highest ranking the Japanese Government gives in the language. (we know this because you often let us know) Why have you not, after all this, talked to the Boss? Hmmm, maybe your credibility is now in question. Maybe you are the one "retreating"
However, comments like how we "labor over a keyboard trying to discredit everyone we meet." are just crass and not where I want this conversation to go."
OK Don, lets compare and contrast.
"AFAIK, none of his other claims seem to pan out. CIA can not confirm his story because it is "too secret" according to them. (Well, if it was secret, why are they talking aboutit?) No one I trust has yet to say they can confirm the stories about Vietnam, Special Forces, CIA case officer, etc.
But what gets me about the pictures is that huge gong they have. Is that really a part of Asian MA practice? Maybe it is a Chinese thing. In some dojos in Japan I have seen Taiko drums, but I can't think of seeing a gong in a dojo. Is it maybe Okinawan, like the sais, nunchakus and such he uses?
I just get this weird thought in my head (I am probably dating myself) of some poor guy trying to show off his kata for the class, only to have to leave the stage after Jamie Farr gongs him."
Crass, did you say. Lets go back in the thread and see where we (Saitos) were brought into it.....
"Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!
BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. "
Wow, isnt that intresting. YOU brought it up so that you could talk about it some more.
Crass huh.
Don, you are truly ridiculous sometimes. The disrespect you show people is truly incredible. I will say it again. You talk smack about people you really dont know any thing about and expect their respect for your opinion. In my opinion, I dont think you have learned anything about the TRUE ART in your entire MA career. Things like HUMILITY, RESPECT, KINDNESS, FIELTY. You PURPOSELY try to get a flame war going on this subject, then when you get one, EVERY BODY ELSE is "CRASS" You should take some advice from my departed Grandfather: " If you wake up and realize that everybody is an @$$ but you, you should look in a mirror"
__________________
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
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Mr. Roley is neither arrogant nor "ridiculous," nor does the manner in which he conducts himself prompt any reasonable, rational observer to conclude such things.
You, on the other hand, are doing a very good job of painting yourself into a corner.
You, on the other hand, are doing a very good job of painting yourself into a corner.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
I know it can be really hard not to sometimes, but can we try to avoid the personal battles and stick to the issues at hand?
Some of the issues brought up by both parties are points worth pondering. Some of the comments made by both parties will get one or more members booted, or get yet another thread shut down...
I'm still waiting to hear answers to questions posed. I wait with an open mind (the opinion of others notwithstanding regarding the openness of my attitude) to see arguments supporting Saito-ryu as a legitimate ryu, or even to simply address the misuse of language (as addressed upthread).
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Some of the issues brought up by both parties are points worth pondering. Some of the comments made by both parties will get one or more members booted, or get yet another thread shut down...
I'm still waiting to hear answers to questions posed. I wait with an open mind (the opinion of others notwithstanding regarding the openness of my attitude) to see arguments supporting Saito-ryu as a legitimate ryu, or even to simply address the misuse of language (as addressed upthread).
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Phil, I would completely agree with your statement if it had begun with "In my opinion" however, I do not think you have the "facts" on this subject nor are you the absolute authority whereas everyone else is "mistaken" I dont feel as if Im in a corner, I feel more like I have a differing opinion than Don. But, thank you for your opinion. I also checked around. Some people actually consider me "reasonable" and "rational"
Matt, your right.
Matt, your right.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Yeah, I know...
It ain't easy being me, being so right all the time, perfect in all that I do, extremely knowledgeable about things common and uncommon, not to mention darn good lookin' to boot, but somebody has to carry this burden! :lol:
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
No, I don't think that's it at all--I think in this one (possibly exceptional) case, an incorrect transliteration has been accepted as a correct English word. That is, jujutsu is the correct transliteration of the corresponding japanese term, but the phrase 'strategic jujitsu' is perfectly acceptable English because it uses the Englis term 'jujitsu' (adapted from a foreign term) and is not an attempt to transliterate a Japanese term into English.
If it's included in an English dictionary, it's English! It's no longer a transliteration. You might as well complain about calling the whole country Japan rather than some transliteration of Nippon.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
-Arnisador
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R
RyuShiKan
Guest
I was being sarcastic in my post.
However, that doesnt change the fact that an alleged Japanese MA with an alleged history of 1,000 years and a supposed direct descendant teaching the art calls it NinjItsu.
Red Flags come up..........
Ok, let us keep this respectfull towards other participents. I have not insulted anyone in this conversation, only made jokes like how I felt the gong in a dojo seemed more at home in the old "gong show" than anything I have seen in Japan. And I do feel that way...
And this conversation is not about Hatsumi or his claims. I get kind of tired of someone who is being questioned about their story throwing out that subject in the manner of what can be found at Phil's article on Internet Defnese Mechanisms.
The fact is, Hatsumi can prove all of his claims of training under Takamatsu and others. If you ask him, he will be pleased to tell you about these things. He was known to be training in an art under Takamatsu long before ninjutsu was popular in Japan.
All of this can not be said of the still- living Mark Saito sr. We do not even know the name of the relative he claims taught him his art, nor do we have any sort of proof. All we can tell is that for years he taught another art before suddenly announcing that he was indeed a ninja master trained from childhood. This should set off red flags by itself. The fact that no one seems willing to go to him and ask the questions that might lead to proving his claims should set off red flags as well.
Again, I ask for some srot of proof that this art has ever been known in Japan. I also ask for some sort of independently verifiable proof that the person who introduced this art to America really had the training he claims. The opinion of people like Wayne Muromoto and others, as well as the discrepencies with things like language, all point to the conclusion that this art was made up by someone in America and given a false history.
And this conversation is not about Hatsumi or his claims. I get kind of tired of someone who is being questioned about their story throwing out that subject in the manner of what can be found at Phil's article on Internet Defnese Mechanisms.
The fact is, Hatsumi can prove all of his claims of training under Takamatsu and others. If you ask him, he will be pleased to tell you about these things. He was known to be training in an art under Takamatsu long before ninjutsu was popular in Japan.
All of this can not be said of the still- living Mark Saito sr. We do not even know the name of the relative he claims taught him his art, nor do we have any sort of proof. All we can tell is that for years he taught another art before suddenly announcing that he was indeed a ninja master trained from childhood. This should set off red flags by itself. The fact that no one seems willing to go to him and ask the questions that might lead to proving his claims should set off red flags as well.
Again, I ask for some srot of proof that this art has ever been known in Japan. I also ask for some sort of independently verifiable proof that the person who introduced this art to America really had the training he claims. The opinion of people like Wayne Muromoto and others, as well as the discrepencies with things like language, all point to the conclusion that this art was made up by someone in America and given a false history.
Don, Who is Phil? I mean in this situation. Is he an absolute authority on human behavior, a Doctor perhaps? Or are you joking? You are referring to him as such. (no offense Phil, Im just kinda lost here)
I am not questioning Hatsumi, I am using it as an example. I am not accusing anyone of anything. If you really believe that you have been fair and balanced on this, I guess I'll fold. Incredible.
I am not questioning Hatsumi, I am using it as an example. I am not accusing anyone of anything. If you really believe that you have been fair and balanced on this, I guess I'll fold. Incredible.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
I conceded to your argument. So long as the term is used within its English language context (i.e. not necessarily a martial art title, term nor description, but rather a description of intricate and complex maneuvering), then the spelling of "jujitsu" is fine.
But if the term in question is being used to describe a martial art of Japanese origin, more specifically one claiming ancient origin and ancestry from that country, then the proper spelling ought to be used. Failing to do so will inevitably draw undue and unwanted attention to the art...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
heretic888
Senior Master
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I found this article online: http://www.tfam.com/background/saitoninjitsu.htm
In it, the author states:
"Due to none too careful transliteration, the art of the Ninja was originally written with the Americanized 'jitsu' rather than the more correct 'jutsu.' Mark Saito, Sr. had always used the term 'jitsu' and made no effort to change it to 'jutsu.' In fact, he remained adamant that his art was not the art of Ninjutsu: 'This is the art of Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu--we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"
And:
"But Mr. Saito never claims a relationship with the Iga or Koga clans. He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin."
Apparently, the Saito-ryu actually holds 'ninjutsu' and their 'ninjitsu' to be two different arts.
This doesn't necessarily mean the Saito-ryu is historically authentic, but they do apparently differentiate themselves from the ninja ryuha.
In it, the author states:
"Due to none too careful transliteration, the art of the Ninja was originally written with the Americanized 'jitsu' rather than the more correct 'jutsu.' Mark Saito, Sr. had always used the term 'jitsu' and made no effort to change it to 'jutsu.' In fact, he remained adamant that his art was not the art of Ninjutsu: 'This is the art of Shorinjin-ryu Saito Ninjitsu--we are not Ninja! This art was granted to the Saito family by the Shorinjin and is highly revered; not for assassins.'"
And:
"But Mr. Saito never claims a relationship with the Iga or Koga clans. He is adamant that his is the 'magical art' and is the unique gift of the Shorinjin."
Apparently, the Saito-ryu actually holds 'ninjutsu' and their 'ninjitsu' to be two different arts.
This doesn't necessarily mean the Saito-ryu is historically authentic, but they do apparently differentiate themselves from the ninja ryuha.
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I always KNEW I was just a low down assassin. Nothing more.
What exactly is a "Magical" art? Is that Like Yellow Bamboo? Or David Copperfield-Ryu? Turning lead to gold? Or by magical does he mean like the way a child veiws the world type magical?
Also, my question goes back to this... because it should very easily be able to answer the questions of how authentic these claims are... IS/WAS there a type of Ninjutsu/Jitsu in japan prior to the "creation" of this in Hawaii that was NOT related to the Ninja? If so, and its not from the Iga/Koga region, What region were the Saito-ryu from, and can historical records of the dojo's be found? Even many of the "offshoots" of the traditional NinJUTSU from Iga and Koga which were nothing but secret ASSASSIN CULTS have written records in Japan, does the Saito-ryu? If the answers to both of those questions are YES, then I would have to say we can accept the claims made by the Saito-ryu, If not I would assume that at best we HAVE to be as skeptical as we would be If I came out today and Said "I am really the secret student of Bruce Lee, and he taught me in his attic and never told anyone becuse people were trying to kill off his art!" COULD it be possible? Sure! Is it likely to be true? Very doubtful.
heretic888
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Seriously. Just watch me flip out and kill someone with my ninja sword. Without even thinking about it. Ninjer-style, you know?
They believe their art comes from Tengu, and is 'divine' or something like that.
Laterz.
T
Tatsukin
Guest
Below is a brief history of our school. I know you have questions. I will do my best to answer them. What would you like to know?
Realize that I did not, like a salmon, run up the stream of this thread to extract all of your concerns. I simple offer myself as a source of information for you; if that is what you wish.
The Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu Academy was founded on April 4, 1966 in Redwood City, California. The Dojo was opened by Mark Saito, Sr. after receiving permission to teach outside of the family. The name of the school came from his grandfather, Hanshichi Saito.
HANSHICHI SAITO was born in Fukushimaken, Japan in 1886. He migrated to Hawaii in May 1907. He was the first in his family to leave Japan to live in Hawaii. He brought with him his wife and oldest son on this initial voyage. He returned to Japan in 1919 to get his daughter, Umeko Mary Saito, and bring her back to Hawaii that same year. He divorced his wife at the time and found another woman to marry; with her he then had another son named Tsurumatsu Saito. Hanshichi died in Aiea, Hawaii in January 1966.
UMEKO MARY SAITO was born in Fukushimaken in May 1907. She migrated to Hawaii in 1919 at the age of 12. While in Japan she learned from her family the Saito Ninjitsu art. Her first son was born on September 5, 1928: Mark Kahalepaiwi Vera Cruz Saito, Sr. On her sons 4th birthday she took him to her father, Hanshichi Saito, to study and learn the family art. Umeko Mary Saito died in Palo Alto, California in 1986.
Aloha,
Chris
Realize that I did not, like a salmon, run up the stream of this thread to extract all of your concerns. I simple offer myself as a source of information for you; if that is what you wish.
The Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu Academy was founded on April 4, 1966 in Redwood City, California. The Dojo was opened by Mark Saito, Sr. after receiving permission to teach outside of the family. The name of the school came from his grandfather, Hanshichi Saito.
HANSHICHI SAITO was born in Fukushimaken, Japan in 1886. He migrated to Hawaii in May 1907. He was the first in his family to leave Japan to live in Hawaii. He brought with him his wife and oldest son on this initial voyage. He returned to Japan in 1919 to get his daughter, Umeko Mary Saito, and bring her back to Hawaii that same year. He divorced his wife at the time and found another woman to marry; with her he then had another son named Tsurumatsu Saito. Hanshichi died in Aiea, Hawaii in January 1966.
UMEKO MARY SAITO was born in Fukushimaken in May 1907. She migrated to Hawaii in 1919 at the age of 12. While in Japan she learned from her family the Saito Ninjitsu art. Her first son was born on September 5, 1928: Mark Kahalepaiwi Vera Cruz Saito, Sr. On her sons 4th birthday she took him to her father, Hanshichi Saito, to study and learn the family art. Umeko Mary Saito died in Palo Alto, California in 1986.
Aloha,
Chris
Very nice Chris,
But where is the proof that Mark Saito sr learned the art he claims he did from his family? I am talking about independently, verifiable proof. It would seem that all you posted should be predicated with the words, "according to what Mark Saito sr says."
Asstated, there is nothing in any Japanese source that I can find to back up wha tyou say. Can you point me in the direction of such a source? I am sure you were not witness to almost anything you wrote, can you give us some sources that we can check for ourselves?
After all the problems with the story so far, it just seems wise to check for ourselves. You say that Saito's grandfatehr gave him permission in 1966 to teach the art, and he died that same year. Can you give physically verifiable proof that the events happend as you say they did?
Again, there are problems with the Japanese used, the consistency of the story, the history is bizarre and people like Wayne Muromoto have said they believe the art was made up by Saito. based on all that, we would like to see some proof for oursleves.
But where is the proof that Mark Saito sr learned the art he claims he did from his family? I am talking about independently, verifiable proof. It would seem that all you posted should be predicated with the words, "according to what Mark Saito sr says."
Asstated, there is nothing in any Japanese source that I can find to back up wha tyou say. Can you point me in the direction of such a source? I am sure you were not witness to almost anything you wrote, can you give us some sources that we can check for ourselves?
After all the problems with the story so far, it just seems wise to check for ourselves. You say that Saito's grandfatehr gave him permission in 1966 to teach the art, and he died that same year. Can you give physically verifiable proof that the events happend as you say they did?
Again, there are problems with the Japanese used, the consistency of the story, the history is bizarre and people like Wayne Muromoto have said they believe the art was made up by Saito. based on all that, we would like to see some proof for oursleves.
