Shield and Mace

[Kenpodoc]

Slightly off topic but this question allowed me to see that this technique is attacking mace with the punching and blocking arms reversed. Now if you time Attacking mace just right or do the stepping forward varient, borrowed force becomes dominant because the vector of the opponent's movement and your R punch are directly opposing.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

How do you get borrowed force from this tech?

And doesn't a barrow help do work? you still have to apply the force yourself to the lever. :0

That tip was cool, I hadn't seen that one yet. I like the part where he is stopping the opp before they have a chance to settle.

My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?

 

[Kenpodoc]

My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?

I would assume that your opponent has spun around and now is driving forward with their flank exposed, possibly for the dreaded butt strike.

jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

Doc,

It's my understanding that originally this was taught as a slip to the L with both hand near the R hip and then a simultaneous R block with a L strike to the Kidney or floating rib. Is this true?

If it was true, then I would say that directional harmony was achieved in this variation of the technique.

Thanks,
Jeff :asian:

 

[jaybacca72]

last night i did not respond to this topic cause i said the hell with it no sense typing,i trained it in the air,on my brother(kenpo aswell),with focus pads full out power and i found that you definitely have to slip the punch if it is for real(we trained with my bro wearing some punching gear),torque is a major power principle and definitley directional harmony with mofg . as for attacking mace we did the same thing for the right punch,left jab and we trained both leads forward with borrowed force being a major power principle and torque minor at the end allthough it is present throughout the technique.
what an awesome night training i am so glad to have a training partner like my bro.
later
jay artyon:

 

[Touch Of Death]

My query is the same as yours. Assuming the technique initially responds by striking the kidney area, how is "Borrowed Force" achieved?

Ok, let me ask you this. lets say that through his forward momentum and your spreading a target with the outward blocking motion, that causes him to jut his lower ribs toward you, is not called borrowed force.(I'm cool with that) what might you call utilizing a set a lower ribs comming toward your strike? That question goes to any tech that causes a spread and a jut. :asian:
Sean

 

[parkerkarate]

There is no Borrowed Force acheived here. There is with Triggered Salute, with Sheild and Mace the apponentent is not doing anything to get you going one way all he is doing is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is no Borrowed Force acheived here. There is with Triggered Salute, with Sheild and Mace the apponentent is not doing anything to get you going one way all he is doing is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?

Then what do you call the use of his forward momentum on the first strike? I'm willing to buy your answer... honest.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Then what do you call the use of his forward momentum on the first strike? I'm willing to buy your answer... honest.
Sean

Clearly several of us probably see the execution of this technique somewhat differently. Of course this is normal and not at all unusual. The general definition of "Borrowed Force" says:

An opponent's force which is used against him. This can be accomplished by going with the opponent's force, or going against his force.

In the interpretation of this technique as I was taught, you angle off by stepping forward and assist your attacker to step past you. Then you pivot using torque from the stored energy in the hips to strike him, after his 'body momentum' causes him to plant forward. Therefore, you are no longer on the line of attack, and are essentially striking from 'behind' the attacker. I see this as not 'borrowing' your attackers force, but instead 'canceling' or 'negating' his force, than countering as you control his width and misalign his hips.

Other interpretations may indeed use 'borrowed force,' but from the general description used at the beginning of this thread, I simply couldn't see it.

 

[Doc]

There is no Borrowed Force acheived here. There is with Triggered Salute. With Sheild and Mace the opponent is punching, and you are stepping out of the way. Unless you are talking about landing the punch when the apponent has planted his foot? Is that what you meant Doc?

I think we essentially agree here. Because of the angles involved, even striking while he is planting would not meet the definition of the 'concept' of 'borrowed force' as I see it. "Triggered Salute" yes, "Shied and Mace" no.

 

[Doc]

I would assume that your opponent has spun around and now is driving forward with their flank exposed, possibly for the dreaded butt strike.

jeff

NOW I understand.

 

[parkerkarate]

I guess after 8 years I finally can figure something out.

LOL

 

[Doc]

I guess after 8 years I finally can figure something out.

LOL

Add 40 to that, and I'm still a student.

 

[kenpoworks]

Doc,

I questioned you on this very technique in the summer, do you remember!.
You answered my question (which was not about "borrowed force " but power generation), then demonstrated the explanation (which was really about alingment / misalingment and not power) and changed it for ever, while walking from the car to the seminar, it took you about a minute and a half, mind you I was listening.
I know I said thanks, but anyway thanks again.
Richi

 

[Doc]

Doc,

I questioned you on this very technique in the summer, do you remember!.
You answered my question (which was not about "borrowed force " but power generation), then demonstrated the explanation (which was really about alingment / misalingment and not power) and changed it for ever, while walking from the car to the seminar, it took you about a minute and a half, mind you I was listening.
I know I said thanks, but anyway thanks again.
Richi

So you really were listening. It is always a pleasure sir, to talk to intelligent open minded individuals like yourself. I enjoy our conversations immensely, and look forward to our spending more quality time together when I come back to the UK/Jersey area.

 

[kenpoworks]

I will look forward to the opportunity of training with you again.

Sir, the pleasure was all mine.

Many Thanks

Richi

.

p.s. Right after the Shield and Mace moment, there was the story about Caruthers living up the jungle with a Gorilla, you enlightened me and I think I made you laugh.