shaolin animal boxing sifu search
- Thread starter govmulestyle
- Start date
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
In my last post I said this is my Taijiquan lineage and I can tell you the lineage of the 2 Wing Chun schools I trained at, not claiming either lineage, same goes with my Xingyiquan sifu it is his lineage not mine. I trained in those lineages but they are not mine.
I am of the belief that unless the sifu tells me that it is my lineage it isn’t. And I tend to take that one step further, if I do not have sufficient time in even if the sifu is talking to me as says “our lineage” I still don’t feel it is mine. My first Wing Chun sifu talked to me like that quite often but since I only got through Siu Nim Tao (xiǎo niàn tóu to use the proper mandarin
) I just don’t feel right claiming the lineage. Add to that I no longer train with him and I no longer do Wing Chun and I REALLY don’t feel right about it. But even if I still did train a CMA style and the sifu never told me it was my lineage as well it really would not matter how long I trained it I still would not claim it. The problem I see with a lot of CMA today comes from both sides of the fence. A legitimate sifu shows up from China to give a seminar and many go to train at that seminar and maybe they go to 2 or 3 with this sifu and then they start claiming that lineage even though that sifu very likely does not consider them a student or even know their name, this is a problem IMO. But then, even if the sifu is told about it or made aware generally the response is one of 2 things, “its America so what can I do” or “It’s America and I don’t really care”. I have seen one case where a person in the USA claimed a lineage to a Taiji family and a family member just happened to be in the area and stopped by his school and told him to stop. But this family member also said, this is America so what can I really do, if it where China things would be different. But there was a slight difference there, both were martial arts teachers from China and it is then believed the one claiming the false lineage knows the rules and should know better, most in the west are clueless about it so….
I guess I am of the belief that unless the sifu actually tells you he/she considers you their student or their serious student or a disciple that you really should not be claiming the lineage, But then that is just me and like my wife always tells me I am more Chinese than she is and I am to serious about Chinese Martial Arts as well as to old fashioned about it. Which is why it is highly likely I would never make any money teaching CMA, and have few students if I did.
And don’t forget I got rather upset at the possibility of a person learning only the long form from my sifu and then possibly claiming lineage a while ago so I tend to take things like lineage rather seriously.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
In my opinion, if you are studying regularly with a teacher, with a serious intent for the long term, you can refer to it as "in our lineage", even if you have not been formally accepted as a disciple.
I believe you could be given license as a teacher, without necessarily being disciple. But this would be a lower level from discipleship.
At any rate, if you have been given teacher license, and/or discipleship, then I think you can claim lineage as your own, in the sense of, "this is MY lineage", which I believe is a stronger statement than the above example, of "in our lineage".
I think a serious student can claim to be "within the lineage". But it takes a recognized teacher and/or disciple to claim to "hold lineage".
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
To further illustrate my point, I have been studying Tibetan White Crane with my sifu for about eleven years, before he took me to my sigung. Sigung accepted me into his training group about a year and a half ago, and I work dilligently in my training.
I am not a disciple, and I have not been formally recognized as a teacher, tho I do train a couple of students in my sifu's class.
I would not claim to be a lineage holder or lineage representative.
However, as a student of my sifu and sigung, I would claim to occupy a place within my lineage.
I am not a disciple, and I have not been formally recognized as a teacher, tho I do train a couple of students in my sifu's class.
I would not claim to be a lineage holder or lineage representative.
However, as a student of my sifu and sigung, I would claim to occupy a place within my lineage.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Took me about 11 or 12 years before my taiji sifu said I was his last serious student.
Am I the lineage holder?
No
Am I in that lineage?
Yes
He has sons so I am assuming one of then might be
But as far as the current Yang family is concerned not even Tung Ying Chiehs children can teach and pass on Yang style and that is the generation of my sifu so if you asked Yang Zhenduo I am learning Taiji and it is Tung Style.. but I am not learning Yang style just more Yang politics
. However per my sifu and everyone that was a student of Tung Ying Chieh... they do Yang styleA few points -- with a caveat that I don't train in CMA.
First, on animal systems. There are two or three ways to do animal systems around the world. You can imitate or mimic the animal's movements directly. So for a tiger system, you might shape your hands to mimic claws or the mouth, striking with long, pawing motions. Another approach is to emulate the animal, studying it's tactics and strategies and using those approaches. You'll still use your hand as a paw or mouth, but you might see more straight line motions, more emphasis on attacking the spine, and so on. The practitioner hear isn't copying the movement alone -- but the spirit and survival strategies. A sort of third approach is more worshipful, for lack of a better term -- and that's why I say it's two or three approaches. Here, the study is less physically and more about the spirituality. It's tougher to describe, and often involves mystical/mythical animals -- and is it's arguable about whether it's martial arts.
Second, on secretive teachers. This goes across all the martial arts; if a teacher is unwilling to explain where he learned, or has a story that's hard to confirm and relies on "this guy I happened to find... ", be skeptical. It's not a guarantee that it's bogus -- but it does raise some questions, no? I can tell you my teacher, and introduce you to him. I can tell you his teacher, and he's well known. Moving into HIS teachers gets harder, because we're dealing with people in Burma in the days after WWII. Bluntly, lots of them have passed away! At the same time, a person may simply be sharing what they know. If you have students of your own, for example, you can't tell them more than you've been told, right?
Third, on questionable masters with skill. Just because someone's background is bogus doesn't mean they can't fight well or train hard! Whether it's the result of someone learning from a dishonest teacher or making it up on their own, they still could have skill. After all, there are plenty of very hard fighters who never set foot in any sort of training hall!
First, on animal systems. There are two or three ways to do animal systems around the world. You can imitate or mimic the animal's movements directly. So for a tiger system, you might shape your hands to mimic claws or the mouth, striking with long, pawing motions. Another approach is to emulate the animal, studying it's tactics and strategies and using those approaches. You'll still use your hand as a paw or mouth, but you might see more straight line motions, more emphasis on attacking the spine, and so on. The practitioner hear isn't copying the movement alone -- but the spirit and survival strategies. A sort of third approach is more worshipful, for lack of a better term -- and that's why I say it's two or three approaches. Here, the study is less physically and more about the spirituality. It's tougher to describe, and often involves mystical/mythical animals -- and is it's arguable about whether it's martial arts.
Second, on secretive teachers. This goes across all the martial arts; if a teacher is unwilling to explain where he learned, or has a story that's hard to confirm and relies on "this guy I happened to find... ", be skeptical. It's not a guarantee that it's bogus -- but it does raise some questions, no? I can tell you my teacher, and introduce you to him. I can tell you his teacher, and he's well known. Moving into HIS teachers gets harder, because we're dealing with people in Burma in the days after WWII. Bluntly, lots of them have passed away! At the same time, a person may simply be sharing what they know. If you have students of your own, for example, you can't tell them more than you've been told, right?
Third, on questionable masters with skill. Just because someone's background is bogus doesn't mean they can't fight well or train hard! Whether it's the result of someone learning from a dishonest teacher or making it up on their own, they still could have skill. After all, there are plenty of very hard fighters who never set foot in any sort of training hall!
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
My teacher was a student of Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Cheng-fu) and Fu Zhong Wen. I do not consider myself as a lineage holder, but I certainly consider myself as part of the lineage. My school teaches exactly what we have been taught by my teacher, which can be verified as "teaching the lineage" by reference to videos available of both Zhen Ji and Fu Zhong Wen. And incidentally by Zhen Duo and Yang Jun (the current Yang lineage holders).
I have absolutely no doubt that Tung Ying Chieh is teaching (and therefore transmitting) the Yang style lineage. Although having said that, the "dip" and "cross stepping" so evident in Tung's form is, I am sure, different to what Yang Cheng-fu finally described as his "Final Form". I am also certain that what Tung Ying Chieh was teaching, was what he was taught by Cheng-fu. It is certainly more traditional Yang than is Cheng Man Ching's efforts!!!!!!
Unfortunately there is no video/film of Yang Cheng-Fu performing: - only still photographs - from his own book and those by Zhen Ji, Zhen Duo - his sons, and Fu Zhong Wen. It is from these reference works that we can be fairly certain that we are continuing to transmit a lineaged form - Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan.
Yes, lineage is very important. I generally find that those who think it isn't, usually don't have any!!!!!!
Very best wishes
I have absolutely no doubt that Tung Ying Chieh is teaching (and therefore transmitting) the Yang style lineage. Although having said that, the "dip" and "cross stepping" so evident in Tung's form is, I am sure, different to what Yang Cheng-fu finally described as his "Final Form". I am also certain that what Tung Ying Chieh was teaching, was what he was taught by Cheng-fu. It is certainly more traditional Yang than is Cheng Man Ching's efforts!!!!!!
Unfortunately there is no video/film of Yang Cheng-Fu performing: - only still photographs - from his own book and those by Zhen Ji, Zhen Duo - his sons, and Fu Zhong Wen. It is from these reference works that we can be fairly certain that we are continuing to transmit a lineaged form - Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan.
Yes, lineage is very important. I generally find that those who think it isn't, usually don't have any!!!!!!
Very best wishes
