Sexual Practices at Guantanamo

[Tgace]

The gathering of intelligence from EPW's is OLD...The military has the habit of sticking with what worked in the past untill some new technique proves better.

I wasnt an Intel. specialist so I cant give you any concrete examples. That last poster said he was so Ill let him answer.

This guy's Blog has some interesting opinions though...
http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=847

 

[Colin_Linz]

I feel greatly ashamed of my countries involvement in the Iraq conflict. Our actions appear very hypocritical. We state many values, but then throw them away when circumstances become difficult. These latest allegations sicken me to the core. How many times over the years have we condemned others for their treatment of human rights? Just the fact that anyone would build a detention facility outside their country so as to avoid the legislation of their nation is hypocritical and demonstrates how they really feel about their own legislation and values. I know these actions are fare from widely accepted within the communities of our countries, but this will not change the way future societies will look back and view our actions. To them we will all be just a bunch of right wing fascists.

 

[MA-Caver]

so I have to ask... What IS appropriate?

Good question....

- Ceicei

Apparently what they're doing in Cuba ISN'T at all. Even though they're suspects with 9/11, Iraqi war prisoners and terrorist suspects... all we're doing is aggravating the situation by flaunting and dissing on their beliefs. It'll make the radicals of their faith just get more incensed at US.
I couldn't even read the full article without being too disgusted to continue. It's sick and pervered and it's a low-grade, uncivilized mentality that is doing this.
Yes, they're terrorist and they're uncivilized for attacking us and our neighbors... Do WE have to stoop to THEIR level of uncivility?
I know of torture ... err, interrogation technqiues that don't require HUMILIATING the crap out of the prisoner. There are ways to make someone talk without that or without pain and mutilation or anything else.
Sodium Barbatol is one drug and Sodium Penathol as well. Sleep depravation, and so forth. It takes time, but hey, they plan on holding those guys for the rest of their natural lives anyway right?
If they haven't gotten them to talk already ... they're not going to.
The military shouldn't have to degrade our image as a civilized and advanced nation by resorting to barbaric and perverted techniques.


:idunno: Mebbe I'm just talking outta my **** and don't know what's really involved here. All I know is that it sickens me that soldiers of one of the greatest fighting forces in the world are resorting to this type of behavior in the name of peace and national security.

The real question should not be if it's appropriate but is it worth it?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Let me see if I got this straight: The prisoner gets to spit on the guard (real phlegm and saliva);

the guard gets to put ink on the prisoner ( nothing at all ) and pretend its blood.

And some of you think the guard is the bad guy.


I somehow have this incredible and unrealistic vision for America, Ghostdog, where we as a nation don't lower ourselves to the level of our enemies.

We keep hearing how the tortures at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo aren't as bad as the beheadings we've encountered in Iraq. Of course they aren't. But they narrow the gap.

I'd prefer we hold the moral high ground and quit comparing ourselves with barbarians who have a 12th century view of the world and justice. We ought not be in a position where we have to say, "but they're worse."

Pick up a copy of Heart of Darkness, by Joseph Conrad sometime, and take time to consider the blurring of the line between savagery and civilization. Or, more quickly, how about the following?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146


I always thought Nietzsche was peachy.


Regards,


Steve

 

[ghostdog2]

Anyone who is "sickened" by this type of behaviour or thinks it is something to be "ashamed" of needs to stay away from real work, real jobs, and real life. I've seen worse on executive retreats. Fraternity hazing goes way beyond anything I've read about here and if you spit on me, I'll break your jaw.
Permanent students, the under-employed, and those who make their hobbies their jobs probably minimize stress and take no hard choices. Good. But let the men and women who are doing the heavy lifting have a little room, please. However misguided they may seem to you, they are well intentioned, even idealistic, adults at work in a very hard world. Want to trade places?

 

[michaeledward]

Anyone who is "sickened" by this type of behaviour or thinks it is something to be "ashamed" of needs to stay away from real work, real jobs, and real life. I've seen worse on executive retreats. Fraternity hazing goes way beyond anything I've read about here and if you spit on me, I'll break your jaw.
Permanent students, the under-employed, and those who make their hobbies their jobs probably minimize stress and take no hard choices. Good. But let the men and women who are doing the heavy lifting have a little room, please. However misguided they may seem to you, they are well intentioned, even idealistic, adults at work in a very hard world. Want to trade places?

"Do not question the authority!"

"Why don't all you whining liberals move to Canada, anyway!"

"You're all just pissed off because you lost the election!"


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=7056

In the ranks of the new conservatives, however, I see and experience much hate. It comes to me in violently worded, ignorant and irrational emails from self-professed conservatives who literally worship George Bush. Even Christians have fallen into idolatry. There appears to be a large number of Americans who are prepared to kill anyone for George Bush.

 

[MA-Caver]

Anyone who is "sickened" by this type of behaviour or thinks it is something to be "ashamed" of needs to stay away from real work, real jobs, and real life. I've seen worse on executive retreats. Fraternity hazing goes way beyond anything I've read about here and if you spit on me, I'll break your jaw.
Permanent students, the under-employed, and those who make their hobbies their jobs probably minimize stress and take no hard choices. Good. But let the men and women who are doing the heavy lifting have a little room, please. However misguided they may seem to you, they are well intentioned, even idealistic, adults at work in a very hard world. Want to trade places?

If I'm sickened or ashamed by this type of behavior then it means that I hold a higher regard for my fellow human being and their (religious) beliefs (no matter how wrong it may be to me) than those who seek to humiliate just because they're in a position to do so. That they're criminals and murderers and terrorists is one thing and should be punished but should be done so on a plane of conciousness that doesn't degrade one's own sense of values and morals.
I'm not EVER afraid of hard work or the dirty job, and I don't appreciate the implication that just because I see and object to the methods used by our soldiers to interrogate their prisoners that I'm unable to do such work. I simply will choose not to do it. I choose to value life on my own terms and will do what is necessary to the extent of those values. I do have direct personal experience with just how hard this world can be and how hard-hearted some of the people can be as well. I used to be one of those hard-hearted sons-o'-beeches, you would not ever want to get on my bad side back then, trust me.
But, now, I'm older, wiser (at least I hope I am) and learned that those ways and that line of thinking was just w-r-o-n-g! I haven't gone soft, I've gone decent!
Some people are just plain bad, some people need to be put to death for the protection of others, some people just need to be dealt with harshly, taking away personal freedom via imprisonment for a long, long time is a damn good way to do it. Taking away one's dignity isn't.

 

[ghostdog2]

Why don't all you whining liberals move to Canada, anyway!"

Naw, stick around. We need you guys. Besides, now that we're out of fake menstrual blood, we're gonna break out the Whoopee Cushions. After that, we make 'em wear beanies with windmills on top and after that we put the fake dog doo-doo under their chairs. It's a laugh a minute, just don't tell anybody.

 

[rmcrobertson]

What this actually indicates is very disturbed psychosexual ideation on the part of somebody with authority in the United States military, or in civilian authority.

What it does not indicate is, gosh, just a little hazing. It is a form of rape, directed against prisoners who in most cases have been detained without recourse, in violation of all sorts if international treaties, and held in continued violation.

"Heavy lifting," indeed. Let's cut the politically-correct speech: what's meant is, "Don't complain about torturing."

Coupled--and one does mean, "coupled," with what's been going on elsewhere--US troops beating prisoners to death, playing games with guns in their mouths, raping prisoners with sticks, etc. etc. etc., anybody with a grain of sense ought to be a little concerned about the combination of sado-masochism and brutal assault.

What ho, Abner Djiallo.

One just can't wait for troops taught to torture and ordered to torture, who have the President of the United States offering grotesque and immoral justifications for their actions, to get back into civilian life.

 

[Colin_Linz]

Anyone who is "sickened" by this type of behaviour or thinks it is something to be "ashamed" of needs to stay away from real work, real jobs, and real life. I've seen worse on executive retreats. Fraternity hazing goes way beyond anything I've read about here and if you spit on me, I'll break your jaw.
Permanent students, the under-employed, and those who make their hobbies their jobs probably minimize stress and take no hard choices. Good. But let the men and women who are doing the heavy lifting have a little room, please. However misguided they may seem to you, they are well intentioned, even idealistic, adults at work in a very hard world. Want to trade places?

As an ex serviceman of 14 years I still find this sickening. In fact the whole Iraq conflict makes me uneasy. This feeling has nothing to do with the fighting to defend your country, but rather the degradation of human rights. We have the concentration camps, how long until we have the gas chambers up and running.

The methods used are illegal; there can be no argument against this. If you condone this then you have complete disregard for your own laws.

The methods used are not effective intelligence gathering. All you get are what people think you want to hear.

The methods used where well beyond rubbing just a little ink on someone.

If America is to maintain its respect within the international community, and continue to be thought of as a champion of justice and worthy international leader, they need to act decisively against these allegations and demonstrate that they believe in human rights. After all, human rights were one of the main reasons for invading Iraq to begin with.

 

[MA-Caver]

As an ex serviceman of 14 years I still find this sickening. In fact the whole Iraq conflict makes me uneasy. This feeling has nothing to do with the fighting to defend your country, but rather the degradation of human rights. We have the concentration camps, how long until we have the gas chambers up and running.

The methods used are illegal; there can be no argument against this. If you condone this then you have complete disregard for your own laws.

The methods used are not effective intelligence gathering. All you get are what people think you want to hear.

The methods used where well beyond rubbing just a little ink on someone.

If America is to maintain its respect within the international community, and continue to be thought of as a champion of justice and worthy international leader, they need to act decisively against these allegations and demonstrate that they believe in human rights. After all, human rights were one of the main reasons for invading Iraq to begin with.

What I've been trying to say, you said it better. Much more so from a veteran! Thank you!

 

[ghostdog2]

Apparently you get weak at the sight of ink. Please don't tell me what you'd do if you ever saw blood.

Get a grip, for goodness sake. You sound like kids on an overnight hike: making up stories to scare each other. " Yeah, yeah, and then there'll be gas chambers, and then, and then,...."

The only American Value you don't support is winning. Oh, and the one about supporting your country, bet you don't get that either.

Stay at home and don't worry. They'll let you know when the scarey part's over.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Anyone who is "sickened" by this type of behaviour or thinks it is something to be "ashamed" of needs to stay away from real work, real jobs, and real life. I've seen worse on executive retreats. Fraternity hazing goes way beyond anything I've read about here..."

Well, I could tell you that when I was 17, I distinctly remember mopping up and scrubbing away a pool of blood that was about 6 feet long, two feet wide and a half-inch deep, then scrubbing down the stretcher that the guy'd (who had Hep B) been on when they had to crack his chest and stitch the ventricular tear he'd gotten during a cardiac catheterization at Newark Beth Israel Hospital; I could tell you about watching them run the bowel on a guy and one of the senior surgeons asking, "SO--you gonna put all them chitlins back now?" or about standing in an elevator as a family got on, with a complete adult human leg from the mid-thigh down triple-bagged under my arm (hard part was, I worried that either the bag would leak, or the knee-joint would flex and the kids' see what it was)--but hell. Why do that? Wouldn't want to trouble your fantasies about liberals.

So instead I'll just ask--which frat and/or business trips were you on, where the boys grabbed guys off the street at gunpoint, put bags over their heads, stuck them in cages, beat them regularly, beat a few to death, ran fake firing squads, sodomized people with sticks, and ****ed each other in the next room over from prisoners being tortured?

You should be reporting these to the cops, you know.

And just incidentally, simply because frats and businessmen on a toot usually don't actually kill anybody, that doesn't mean that they don't reveal the same sort of sick abuses of power and psychosexual twistedness that we see presently on the loose in some parts of our military and, "intelligence," services. And just incidentally, it should bother you at least a little that the excuses you're giving are precisely the same ones that Stalin's torturers and Hitler's torturers gave.

But mainly, it should bother you that your government is now trying to turn rape into a regular, official, well-planned, policy.

 

[ghostdog2]

Actually, this thread was about the use of ink as fake blood in an interrogation effort. All of the window dressing about rape, sodomy and firing squads was a late inning bait and switch to avoid playing a losing hand.

No one condones what you describe. It is not and has never been the official policy of my government. Broad and baseless generalizations, of which one is fond, lead nowhere.

It should bother you that the attacks you make and excuses you give are exactly the same ones always given by those who would rather see their country lose than win.

 

[Flatlander]

Actually, this thread was about the use of ink as fake blood in an interrogation effort. All of the window dressing about rape, sodomy and firing squads was a late inning bait and switch to avoid playing a losing hand.

How is the use of a human being's religeous belief system to terrorize them a useful interrogation technique? Can you provide us with a reason to believe that this technique:
a) provides reliable testimony,
b) is legal with regards to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which YOUR GOVERNMENT ratified,
c) is otherwise useful and efficient?

Beyond that, I am having a lot of trouble trying to understand how anyone can justify the abuse of an innocent person in any way. I say innocent because nobody there has been charged or convicted of anything. YOUR GOVERNMENT is holding hostages and abusing them. You are defending it. Good form.

No one condones what you describe. It is not and has never been the official policy of my government. Broad and baseless generalizations, of which one is fond, lead nowhere.

Gen. Sanchez's command then issued a policy that included the use of stress positions and dogs, along with at least five of seven exceptional techniques approved by Mr. Rumsfeld in the revised Guantanamo policy.

from this article.

It should bother you that the attacks you make and excuses you give are exactly the same ones always given by those who would rather see their country lose than win.

Who would rather see your country lose than win? How do you define winning? What would you consider a loss, in this circumstance? Because one uses arguments of a particular nature, how does that reflect upon the ideas contained within them? Are you suggesting that one of our members is a terrorist, or otherwise guilty of treason?

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Apparently you get weak at the sight of ink. Please don't tell me what you'd do if you ever saw blood.

Get a grip, for goodness sake. You sound like kids on an overnight hike: making up stories to scare each other. " Yeah, yeah, and then there'll be gas chambers, and then, and then,...."

The only American Value you don't support is winning. Oh, and the one about supporting your country, bet you don't get that either.

Stay at home and don't worry. They'll let you know when the scarey part's over.

ghostdog, do you realize that you are addressing your ridiculous comments to people who served, who are veterans, who come from military families?

 

[Tgace]

I too have problems with "some" of the methods and unspecified length of detention issues here...but that said, what do all of you believe are effective techniques for getting necessary information from uncooperative "military prisoners of war"? (the issues of non-combatant detentions are another issue I can agree that there are "issues" with) The "rules" with the military are different from civil law issues, these people are under military jurisdiction.

Everybody has their opinions on "this wont work" and "that wont work". In your expert opinions, what will work? There seems to be a lot of armchairing going on here. Where are the psychological studies showing better means. Im not talking about beatings, and some of the stuff weve all seen on TV. Im primarily talking about things like sleep dep., feeding schedules, lighting, uncomfortable positioning, etc. That some here would still deem "torture". What methods with proven, time tested results, would be "acceptable" to halt another 9/11? Or identify terrorist cells that are blowing up polling place, police stations, US troops etc???

 

[michaeledward]

I am certainly not an expert. Yet, this still is a hobsons choice.

You can not know there is another 9/11 that you can prevent by taking any action?

If you are interrogating for information, ask questions, disrupt schedules, control all sensory input.

If that doesn't get you where you want, hell, pull their fingernails out, stick a red-hot poker in the eye, castrate him (But don't break any bones, that would violate Attorney General Nominee Gonzales's standards)

But don't confuse those activites with interrogation. And certainly don't think the information you acquire will be useful.

 

[Tgace]

I think the CIA and other organizations have the "best" (read you dont want to know the details) field experience with this stuff. Do you think they have never considered the issue of inaccurate information? All interrogation stuff Im familiar with demands multiple independent verifications of information. One prisoner says something and you think the military is going to plan operations off of it? I dont think so. Intelligence experts sort through the entirety of intell they have (HUMINT,SIGINT,IMINT) and look for pattern and verification.

Granted the method isnt 100% effective, but what is?

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-ntel.htm
http://www.nsa.gov/sigint/index.cfm
http://security.teleactivities.net/intelligence/espionage/disciplines/humint.html
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/search/intel_sum.html

 

[rmcrobertson]

I posted as I posted because of the repeated claim on these threads that a) none of this stuff ever happened, b) OK, it happened but it wasn't SERIOUS, and c) anyway, even if it happened and it was serious, well, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs and anyway why are you libs squeaminsh about defending your country, ya punks ya?

Before the next claim that this has nothing to do with official policy, such claimants might do well to take a good hard look at the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International websites. They're easily available and easy to navigate, and they include this:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/21/usint9925.htm

One also recommends seriously considering the psychosexual underpinnings and likely futures of soldiers who are taught and encouraged to carry out these sorts of actions, as well as the wisdom of relying upon the completely-unsubstantiated theoretical claim that torture in all its forms is a regrettable necessity that brings good results.

After all, funnily enough we have no evidence of any necessary information procured by such means. We have excellent, extensive, all-too-solid grounds to fear what happens when groups of military and "security," people are allowed to grab people in violation of international law and treaty, hold them incommunicado for indefinite periods without let or hindrance, and abuse them however they wish, all in the name of, "national security."

Or do we prefer the abstract claims about unproven necessity that use situational ethics to justify breaking all sorts of military regulations, civilian law, and international treaties?