Seminars to other styles (or open)

[Mark Lynn]

Holy crap, that's a lot of info, Mark - THANKS!

A few comments, just because I'm a postwhore:

And I'm long winded

1) I want to come to one of your seminars - I like the mixture of FMA and other weapons (my FMA experience was actually a blend of FMA and some form of Jujutsu, so I love seeing FMA blends.

Sure any time. My primary art (now) is Modern Arnis which is a blend of FMA and small circle jujitsu.

2) Your #2 (the first one, about time for teaching) is my weakest point. I always mis-estimate how long things will take. So, I assume I won't get through everything AND I need extra material. (This goes for public speaking, as well.)

As do I, what seems simple to me can take the students especially if they are unfamiliar with your main subject matter (or your art) much longer to understand, much less duplicate as a sequence (such as a defensive move against a given attack, or a sequence out of a kata etc. etc.

3) Your #3 (don't try to teach NGA) is what lead me to this thread. I don't want to go in and teach NGA. In some cases, I may want to give them a taste of our approach (for instance, if teaching to an Aikido crowd) by using techniques they already know in a different way, but a seminar is not the place to teach the art.

Agreed it all depends though. If asked to teach your given art that's one thing, but otherwise I think it is best to try and teach something they will find value in that might help them take their training further or a slightly altered direction.

4) #4 (bring a partner) may be a problem for one opportunity. I've gotten some touches from Europe (including one from a MT person - thanks!). While my wife would hopefully come with me, for physical reasons her ukemi isn't great. She's also too short to demonstrate well on (nearly a foot shorter than me - too much adjustment). I'm not sure how I'll overcome that. In many parts of the US, I might be able to find a nearby NGA school to borrow from, but it will almost always be someone I don't know. Not ideal, by any stretch.

I only suggested bringing someone (assuming it is a nearby school) if it's feasible. Otherwise I would just use the host or a senior student.

Currently I'm teaching a monthly Presas Arnis instructors course to students at a school that is about an hour away. We have students/instructors coming from different schools (some as far away as Oklahoma) so it is like a recurring mini seminar. Sometimes we have up to 15 students other times below 10, you never know. Anyway I bring two of my black belts in Presas Arnis to help out and demo with, but more importantly they walk the floor and help guide and oversee the students. They answer questions, make suggestions, fill in if there is an odd person etc. etc. so they are invaluable to me in making each class a success. They don't have to come if they don't want to, but they enjoy the class because it is different than how I teach my normal weekly classes.

This is a course where I'm teaching our version of Presas Arnis to other students and instructors from other systems who have other primary arts that they do. So I relate the instruction to their primary art as well as teaching on how I was taught the art, how we've grown or changed, drills and techniques that we've learned from other instructors etc. etc. all with the goal of bringing up other instructors in Presas Arnis. Presas Arnis is our blending of GM Remy and GM Ernesto's Presas's martial art systems (Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis). However I would never get into this stuff like I do at a general seminar.

Here's one more suggestion.
1) Know your audience and don't offend them. I'm not quite sure I did this, but..... I think I did so I'll share it. Our parent American Karate/TKD organization asked me to teach a 2 hr. class for black belts on weapons. So I thought I would show how you can use different weapons to do the disarms with (this was back in 1999/2000?). So I demonstrated and being kind of cocky back then I brought all sorts of stuff (flash light, raquet ball, magazine etc. etc.) including the traditional weapons like the sai, tonfa, kama. So at the end of the class I then demonstrated how all of these things tie together through disarming stick attacks. To further enlighten them I then called into question why do you need to learn separate weapon arts through kata i.e. sai, tonfa, kama, when you can use them very much the same way.

Considering that they (the heads of the organization) were teaching the kobudo program (I talk about it on another thread) here I was kind of challenging their teaching. It wasn't my intention to offend but I might have, since they didn't ask me to do anything else for them for a few years. Once time passed, I've now taught for them several times over the years (and of course they backed me up when I screwed up the test I mention on the other discussion) so I didn't really make them angry. But for several years (4-5 I think) maybe I did.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Oh, and based on past history, I was sorely tempted to click "disagree".

Gerry
Was eating when I read this yesterday almost spit my food out laughing. Thanks for giving me a laugh at the end of a long day.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I'm long winded




Sure any time. My primary art (now) is Modern Arnis which is a blend of FMA and small circle jujitsu.




As do I, what seems simple to me can take the students especially if they are unfamiliar with your main subject matter (or your art) much longer to understand, much less duplicate as a sequence (such as a defensive move against a given attack, or a sequence out of a kata etc. etc.



Agreed it all depends though. If asked to teach your given art that's one thing, but otherwise I think it is best to try and teach something they will find value in that might help them take their training further or a slightly altered direction.



I only suggested bringing someone (assuming it is a nearby school) if it's feasible. Otherwise I would just use the host or a senior student.

Currently I'm teaching a monthly Presas Arnis instructors course to students at a school that is about an hour away. We have students/instructors coming from different schools (some as far away as Oklahoma) so it is like a recurring mini seminar. Sometimes we have up to 15 students other times below 10, you never know. Anyway I bring two of my black belts in Presas Arnis to help out and demo with, but more importantly they walk the floor and help guide and oversee the students. They answer questions, make suggestions, fill in if there is an odd person etc. etc. so they are invaluable to me in making each class a success. They don't have to come if they don't want to, but they enjoy the class because it is different than how I teach my normal weekly classes.

This is a course where I'm teaching our version of Presas Arnis to other students and instructors from other systems who have other primary arts that they do. So I relate the instruction to their primary art as well as teaching on how I was taught the art, how we've grown or changed, drills and techniques that we've learned from other instructors etc. etc. all with the goal of bringing up other instructors in Presas Arnis. Presas Arnis is our blending of GM Remy and GM Ernesto's Presas's martial art systems (Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis). However I would never get into this stuff like I do at a general seminar.

Here's one more suggestion.
1) Know your audience and don't offend them. I'm not quite sure I did this, but..... I think I did so I'll share it. Our parent American Karate/TKD organization asked me to teach a 2 hr. class for black belts on weapons. So I thought I would show how you can use different weapons to do the disarms with (this was back in 1999/2000?). So I demonstrated and being kind of cocky back then I brought all sorts of stuff (flash light, raquet ball, magazine etc. etc.) including the traditional weapons like the sai, tonfa, kama. So at the end of the class I then demonstrated how all of these things tie together through disarming stick attacks. To further enlighten them I then called into question why do you need to learn separate weapon arts through kata i.e. sai, tonfa, kama, when you can use them very much the same way.

Considering that they (the heads of the organization) were teaching the kobudo program (I talk about it on another thread) here I was kind of challenging their teaching. It wasn't my intention to offend but I might have, since they didn't ask me to do anything else for them for a few years. Once time passed, I've now taught for them several times over the years (and of course they backed me up when I screwed up the test I mention on the other discussion) so I didn't really make them angry. But for several years (4-5 I think) maybe I did.

Thanks, again, Mark!

On your last point, this is something I've been thinking through a while. I can see three areas where I could screw this up: with other NGA folks when talking about what I do differently and why (I can diffuse this pretty easily - I have this discussion with NGA folks from time to time), with other Aikido styles when talking about what NGA does differently and why (this might be touchier, but I think I have approaches that will defuse it), and if I were talking with any other group about how to have a more self-defense focus (this is the one I'm probably least adept at communicating without seeming to impugn their integrity).

 

[Mark Lynn]

Gerry

As I posted my comment yesterday I had two suggestions but could only remember 1, sitting here this morning it came to me what the 2nd one was so I'll pass this along as well.

Be prepared to abandon what you planned to teach and go with the flow, Saturday when I was teaching the Presas Arnis Instructors course, I was all geared up t teach empty hand pad drills. I figured with the students (most of them anyways) being from a American Karate background they would enjoy the class, so I packed up different types of pads; focus mitts, Thai Pads (the heavy forearm shields), lighter weight forearm pads for the younger students etc. etc. We did a few drills at the previous months class (of this type) so I was already to hit a home run with this material. Well we had a smaller class this time and we started off with double stick drills that were variations of other drills we had been working on over the past several classes and I noticed an improvement in everyone's skills (like wow they have been practicing and working with each other) so we did some more variations and everyone's having a good time being challenged and rocking along. All of the while I start looking at the clock figuring OK we need to change, but then I realized that they were happy riffing on this material and I was able to show them something that would be coming up more in the future but was still different than what I had showed previously.

Everyone then tells me they really enjoyed the class and the material, and now I can save those empty hand drills for next month.

It's great to be prepared, to have everything worked out as to what your going to say, the points to make and the drills to show. But sometimes if things are clicking along just right don't be afraid to step out abandon it or modify your plans, even if your standing in front of the group that you are presenting to.

 

[hoshin1600]

Otherwise I would just use the host or a senior student.

i would advise against this. it is not a bad idea if you know the host well and he is ok with it. but in general terms we do not always know the host or his temperment. many instructors could take this as being disrespectfull or a challenge. it depends on what the personalities are like of both the host and the presenter.

i personally would at the introduction of the seminar give a small disclaimer about how i will teach things that are in direct conflict to things you may be doing now. systems are systems and sometimes ideas and concepts will clash so i can only teach you how i do things , but that doesnt make what you are being taught incorrect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry

As I posted my comment yesterday I had two suggestions but could only remember 1, sitting here this morning it came to me what the 2nd one was so I'll pass this along as well.

Be prepared to abandon what you planned to teach and go with the flow, Saturday when I was teaching the Presas Arnis Instructors course, I was all geared up t teach empty hand pad drills. I figured with the students (most of them anyways) being from a American Karate background they would enjoy the class, so I packed up different types of pads; focus mitts, Thai Pads (the heavy forearm shields), lighter weight forearm pads for the younger students etc. etc. We did a few drills at the previous months class (of this type) so I was already to hit a home run with this material. Well we had a smaller class this time and we started off with double stick drills that were variations of other drills we had been working on over the past several classes and I noticed an improvement in everyone's skills (like wow they have been practicing and working with each other) so we did some more variations and everyone's having a good time being challenged and rocking along. All of the while I start looking at the clock figuring OK we need to change, but then I realized that they were happy riffing on this material and I was able to show them something that would be coming up more in the future but was still different than what I had showed previously.

Everyone then tells me they really enjoyed the class and the material, and now I can save those empty hand drills for next month.

It's great to be prepared, to have everything worked out as to what your going to say, the points to make and the drills to show. But sometimes if things are clicking along just right don't be afraid to step out abandon it or modify your plans, even if your standing in front of the group that you are presenting to.

Agreed. If anything, I'm a bit too ready to ditch my plan and follow the energy in the room. I do it when teaching management seminars and martial arts. It's fun.

 

[Mark Lynn]

i would advise against this. it is not a bad idea if you know the host well and he is ok with it. but in general terms we do not always know the host or his temperment. many instructors could take this as being disrespectfull or a challenge. it depends on what the personalities are like of both the host and the presenter.

I agree with the above statement, but I figured this would have been worked out a head of time. I would never try and do anything that would be seen as disrespectful to the host.

i personally would at the introduction of the seminar give a small disclaimer about how i will teach things that are in direct conflict to things you may be doing now. systems are systems and sometimes ideas and concepts will clash so i can only teach you how i do things , but that doesnt make what you are being taught incorrect.

Good point and good way of putting it.

 

[Finlay]

I guess it depend what they want and what your knowledge of the base style is.

Is you have some knowledge of what they do.you can find some common areas and branch off.

One of the most impressive seminars I went to was where the teacher broke down the forms we did and showed different applications

 

[Anarax]

For those of you who deliver seminars, what is your focus when you deliver seminars to other styles, or to an open group? I've actually had a couple of requests and a soft invitation this week, so I need to think about what I'd actually do with a seminar. Do you teach some basics of your style? Focus on some aspects that should apply to most martial artists? Teach some principles for translating training into defense/competition/whatever?

I think the best things to teach are concepts and strategy. For example, in Kali we have the concept of defanging. Most styles have techniques that could be used for defanging, yet they don't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the best things to teach are concepts and strategy. For example, in Kali we have the concept of defanging. Most styles have techniques that could be used for defanging, yet they don't.

So, if you were teaching a seminar to a group of people outside Kali - let's say a bunch of BJJ folks with a self-defense mindset - what would be your approach to teaching that concept, to help them integrate it into what they do when they go back to their training?

 

[Anarax]

Considering BJJ doesn't use small joint locks(wrists, fingers), emphasizing the advantage of breaking your opponent's hand in combat would be important to cover. BJJ students shouldn't have a hard time with wrist locks considering they specialize in locks, but you would still have to show them the techniques. This is even better if they have a self-defense mindset as in your example, given you can't do small joint locks in BJJ tournaments. They can then incorporate small joint locks in rolling, with appropriate caution of course.

 

[Langenschwert]

It depends. When it's another HEMA club, I can do something very specific and detailed, since they will generally understand bladed combat, even if they do a different style. However, when a club is primarily unarmed in focus, I have to start at the beginning, starting with "how to hold a sword" and then move on, adjusting the content on the fly depending on how quickly they're assimilating the content. Very often, explaining the concept of True Time is needed with primarily unarmed practitioners, and then getting them to do it takes more.

The less familiar the audience, the more flexible the lesson plan has to be.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Considering BJJ doesn't use small joint locks(wrists, fingers), emphasizing the advantage of breaking your opponent's hand in combat would be important to cover. BJJ students shouldn't have a hard time with wrist locks considering they specialize in locks, but you would still have to show them the techniques. This is even better if they have a self-defense mindset as in your example, given you can't do small joint locks in BJJ tournaments. They can then incorporate small joint locks in rolling, with appropriate caution of course.

BJJ does have wrist locks. They're even legal in competition. (Not finger locks, though.)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For those of you who deliver seminars, what is your focus when you deliver seminars to other styles, or to an open group? I've actually had a couple of requests and a soft invitation this week, so I need to think about what I'd actually do with a seminar. Do you teach some basics of your style? Focus on some aspects that should apply to most martial artists? Teach some principles for translating training into defense/competition/whatever?

Have you had any of the seminars yet? How did they go?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you had any of the seminars yet? How did they go?

No. The ones I've talked to folks about would be well out in the future - the travel will take planning on my part. The rest was mostly for future planning - something I'd like to do more of, to share between styles.

 

[Anarax]

BJJ does have wrist locks. They're even legal in competition. (Not finger locks, though.)

Hmm, I didn't know that. It must vary from school to school because neither of the BJJ schools I went to even touched on it, granted that was a while ago so things have obviously changed. Thanks for making me feel old Tony. I did look up BJJ tournament rules, some do allow wrist locks blue belt and up. You can always still cover wrist lock variations to see if there are some they're not familiar with. Yeah, fingers are still new territory you can introduce them to.

 

[geezer]

I think the best things to teach are concepts and strategy. For example, in Kali we have the concept of defanging. Most styles have techniques that could be used for defanging, yet they don't.

Feeling like a wise-guy I was all set to respond: De-fanging the snake? A lotta good that'll do if the snake you're fighting turns out to be a constrictor!

Then Tony, in all seriousness, beats me to the same response when he asked how you'd approach teaching de-fanging to a BJJ group.

And FWIW, I didn't realize BJJ used wrist-locks either. Your response about finger-locks was also insightful. I guess if you look at fingers as the "fangs of the hand", then breaking fingers is exactly how you would defang the BJJ guy.

The other thing a lot of FMA people often share with grapplers is, of course, stick-grappling. The additional leverage and focused pressure can be a great force amplifier. On the other hand, if you aren't really good at it (and I'm not) the stick can just get in the way when rolling, ...or worse, be taken away and used against you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

With regard to finger locks and BJJ, I'll just repeat something I mention sometimes when people say "style X (boxing/wrestling/Judo/whatever) is a sport, they don't know how to do (insert dirty tactic here), it's against the rules."

If the technique in question is against the rules, it doesn't necessarily mean a competitor in that sport doesn't know how to use it. It may just mean they know how to do it in such a way that the ref can't see it.

Just saying...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For those of you who deliver seminars, what is your focus when you deliver seminars to other styles, or to an open group?

In my 8/13/2017 3 hours workshop, the following material was covered.

Sometime 1 principle just map into 1 technique. Sometime 1 principle can map into 16, or even 20 techniques.

principle -> techniques
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st Side:

咬(Yao) – Bite (45 degree downward)

1. Leading arm push upper arm shin bite

撿(Jian) - Foot picking (horizontal)

1. Leading arm push upper arm foot picking

粘(Zhan) - Sticking kick (vertical up)

1. Hopping sticking kick (vertical)

撮(Cuo) – Scooping kick (45 degree up)

1. Back arm, leading leg scooping kick
2. Leading arm, back leg scooping kick
3. Single neck tie body twist scooping kick
4. Single neck tie scooping kick, break

踢(Ti) – Kick (behind the heel, in front of instep)

1. Shoulder pulling kick – push/pull, counter itself
2. Sleeve push/pull kick – sleeve hold, or upper arm hold
3. Foot landing kick
4. Horizontal throw, heel kick – back belt right sprint, right kick
5. Neck arm kick – collar/sleeve, twist/counter twist, single neck tie
6. Neck mopping kick- spin, wheeling step
7. Elbow locking kick – counter itself
8. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
9. Reverse head lock kick
10. Front waist lifting kick
11. Head leaning knee seize kick – left knee seize, right kick
12. 3 points step kick – head lock, or under hook right back spring, right kick
13. Scoop kick – mirror stance, right scoop, left kick, collar/sleeve
14. Back spring kick – right back spring, left kick
15. Side spring kick – left side spring, right kick
16. Horizontal throw, inner edge kick – back belt horizontal throw, left kick

撞(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting

靠(Kao) – Shoulder strike

1. Shoulder push bench sitting advance squeeze
2. Shoulder push knee push advance squeeze
3. Leg lift waist control flip
4. Leading leg pull, back leg shoulder strike

4th Side:

别 (Bie) – Break (both feet on the ground), 撩(Liao) - Back kick (single leg standing),

1. Head lock stealing step break – uniform stance
2. Head lock cover step break – mirror stance
3. Under hook break - offense
4. Under hook break - counter for head lock
5. Over hook break
6. Hip throw break
7. Back waist lift break
8. Front waist lift break
9. Side door stealing step break
10. Bowing break – stealing step, or cover step
11. Scoop break – scoop left leg, break right leg
12. Leg twist, leg break
13. Leg lift, leg break
14. Jumping break – pin arm on chest, foot stomping, jump in, head lock
15. Reverse head lock break
16. Knee pressing break – counter for single leg
17. Linear hand break
18. Circular hand break
19. Hand leg break
20. Fancy break – hold left leg, break right leg

扣(Kou) - Knee seizing

1. Arm drag knee seize
2. Knee strike knee seize
3. Shoulder strike knee seize

切(Qie) – Cut

1. Footwork
2. Neck push front cut
3. Neck press diagonal cut
4. Uniform stance head lock cut
5. Mirror stance head lock cut

削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking

1. Shoulder push sickle hooking
2. Waist wrapping neck pushing sickle hooking

 

[Anarax]

The other thing a lot of FMA people often share with grapplers is, of course, stick-grappling. The additional leverage and focused pressure can be a great force amplifier. On the other hand, if you aren't really good at it (and I'm not) the stick can just get in the way when rolling, ...or worse, be taken away and used against you.

At first I was considering what I would teach BJJ guys at a seminar, small joint locks or stick grappling. Yes,we do a lot of stick grappling in FMA and it's amazing all the locks and chokes you can do with them. However; I think the small joint locks will click with BJJ guys a bit better, and after the seminar they should be able to practice and incorporate them into their regular practice. Stick grappling on the other hand will be more foreign to BJJ practitioners, they will most likely have a very difficult time incorporating it into into their regular practice as well.