Self-training vs. Formal training

[splice42]

So knowledgeable Charles.
One thing I do know, I hope you are not someones Sensei- you've the wrong attitude yourself, and would inject/implant negativity in your students.

Actually, I've probably more the 'martial attitude' than most you know(though me lesser self is not displaying such here--- I even know it).

Are you really telling us that you, who haven't been to a formal class or trained in a traditional sword art in a dojo, have a "more martial attitude" and a better idea of what a sensei would think of your training and behavior than people who have spent years watching students come and go, not only in their own dojo but others?

I personally couldn't care less what you do and how you do it, practice on your own all you want, as long as you follow basic safety precautions when around other people. But really, without experience in traditional sword arts, your opinion about what a sensei should think and who has the "more martial attitude" is pretty irrelevant. You honestly have no basis for your judgment that is significant in the context of traditional japanese sword arts, for the simple reason that you're not involved in any way with them.

In fact, your claims to having the "more martial attitude" (love that expression) and your criticism of others' behaviours are very common amongst those who self-train. After all, it just wouldn't do for them to admit that what they're doing is very thinly connected to traditional swords arts, if at all, and has much more to do with swinging a bar of metal around to little purpose. It certainly can be a good work-out, it can be fun, you can fantasize about different situations and how you would react to them, what effect your cuts would have, make up grand duels in your head, it's all good. It just isn't a traditional japanese sword art.

But my 'wrong attitude' here, would not translate to the dojo

PS: The attitude you display outside of the dojo is just as important, if not more important, than that in the dojo. It takes no thought to comply with rules and etiquette in the dojo, where it is demanded by your teacher. It takes a budoka to take that attitude and make it a part of their life. Even on message boards. Especially on message boards.

 

[pgsmith]

Not being formally trained, doesn't necessarily translate to playing.
Its quite amazing still how it reeks from the membership this disdain for my lack of training, more than any concern for my safety;; and also the deliberate avoidance of my comments that I've rarely a nick to my person with all my personal training, no kind of encouragement, etc.

You can try and tell yourself whatever you wish sir, but no formal training does translate as playing. You've no real idea what you are doing, or what you are supposed to be doing, so you made it up. It may be difficult, look impressive, and be a great workout, but it is still playing with swords as opposed to training in a sword art. Too bad if that makes you feel inferior or anything, but that's the bald truth of it. Also, just because you've been careful (which I applaud by the way) means absolutely nothing about the validity of what you're doing. It simply means that you play carefully. (which I applaud by the way) I refuse to give you any sort of encouragement. I consider what you are doing to be quite dangerous, and it could potentially have a backlash onto those of us that actually train under a legitimate instructor.

Hey guy, "point sharp objects". Listen, so if I had formal training and a blackbelt, "point sharp objects" becomes o.k.? Please.

I'm not exactly sure just what that statement means. I think you are trying to ask if it would be different if you had formal training, and the answer would be yes. If you had formal training, you would know what to do and what not to do instead of making it up and potentially having a major disaster.

1.If I were playing(as you say), and you've read my range of workout, why do I employ at least a selection of 8 weapons, practice in doubles, have barely ever suffered a nick to myself(though I've dropped at times....can't stop gravity), have been doing this for a number of years, etc. Where is play involved?
*this is my meditation to me, and one of the few things that gives me peace of mind,, it is my personal discipline too

Well, that's all wonderful, but all that means is that this is a serious game to you. Still a game, but you take it seriously. Would you classify baton twirling as playing? That's basically all you are doing, baton twirling with dangerous batons. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it simply has no bearing or relation to what this forum is about.

2.I certainly have had 'attitude' here, and have embarrassed myself too. But my 'wrong attitude' here, would not translate to the dojo
*I've claimed a reason as why the dojo might not be possible for me-but everyone knows my reason better....go figure.
*attendance on Sat is out for reasons I mentioned before

Your excuses for not learning are simply that ... excuses. Everyone else on here that has had the desire to learn has figured out a way to get to legitimate training, you prefer not to. Also, you cannot turn on and off your attitude. It is part of who you are. I think I can safely say that you would not last very long in my dojo. I've watched dozens just like you come and go.

3.This is exemplarary of what I define as antagonistic like comments being selectively tossed in.

I explained to you why you were likely to get nothing but antagonism on this forum. However, you refuse to listen to anything that isn't your own thought already.

4.I keep posting because I feel there is something wrong when the type of individuals I've had the most respect for in my adult years(especially the discipline the members in this forum practice), are taking me to task in the manner that I see, and not leaving the criticisms where they should be.

The criticisms are exactly where they should be sir. You have an erroneous idea of what is involved in training in the sword arts, and an idealistic view of how those that train should act. Those are simply your misconceptions sir, and it is not our problem, it is yours.

I really should've practiced my own discipline and walked away from this earlier.

Yes sir, you should have. At the point when it became apparent that everyone that has been studying the sword arts for a while had a different opinion from yours. If you had any of that discipline you talk about, or even a slight bit of an open mind, you would have been able to stop and ask yourself why all of those with experience had a different opinion than you. Istead, you complain about our opinions and believe that we are all wrong and that you know better. That's all well and good, but it won't keep you from getting harrassed for those views.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

One cannot "self train" and hope for any level of real success.

We seem to be seeing a growing number of dreamers logging onto message boards, thinking that they are somehow doing warrior training, waving their $49 Flea Market Special around in their back yard, trying to mimic "The Last Samurai" or "Samurai X". Well, fools will do as fools will do. Hollywood tricks and decorative replicas, true training does not make. I don't care how many times to try to convince us otherwise. Those with -REAL- training, will always see you as little more than a "wannabe".

A real sword is not made from Stainless Steel. Period.
A real sword does not have a little welded rat tail on it.
A real sword does not come in a plastic scabbard.
A real sword is not found at the mall knife shop, the flea market, or the mail order collectible shop.

Just because it was listed "functional" or "sharp" doesn't mean it's safe to use.

Let me repeat that, because some morons don't get it.

Just because it was listed "functional" or "sharp" doesn't mean it's safe to use.

95% of the swords sold are sold for decorative purposes Only!
That means, they are meant to look nice hanging on your wall, mounted over the fireplace, or on a rack on a shelf.

They are not meant to be used, in any way, shape or form.

Why?

Because.
Because they are not designed for use.
Because the balance is all wrong.
Because the steel is not going to hold up to use, and may shatter.
Because the edge will not hold an edge.
Because the fittings are also not designed to holdup to use.

Trying to train with a wall hanger will not make you better.
It will not help you "do what I can for now".

It will train you to do things improperly, as you compensate for the POS's failings.

It puts you at risk of greater injury than if you were training with a real live edge sword.

Too many places today are passing laws restricting or flat out denying sword training and ownership.
Why?

Because of the actions of morons who think that waving around a 440 stainless $89 Internet Special is akin to real training.

Real sword training starts using wooden swords.
The JMA calls them Bokken, the WMA, "Wasters".
Yes. Wood. Nice Oak hardwood swords, shaped and balanced like the real deal.
They don't use the Bud-K Specials.

Real sword training doesn't come from reading a book, or watching a video.
It comes from personal guidance, from someone who already knows something. This is most especially needed today, since you are most likely not going to beat off some bandits later this evening while traveling to Kyoto looking for Yahiko.

So, to those of you with a clue, who are here to share your experience, wisdom and knowledge, Thank You! Some of us appreciate the efforts you make and time you spend here. Not all of us are content to live purposefully stupid and in a dangerous fantasy world. Your reality is a welcome oasis, in a desert of cartoon fools.

And to those of you so stupid as to continue swinging that wall hanger, pretending that what you do has any value at all, and continuing to ignore the massive safety risks you are placing yourself, and those around you at, all I can say is that I hope you somehow wake up, before you hurt, maim or kill someone in your continued stupidity.

 

[Andrew Green]

So... what you are saying is this is not the sword for me to order?

 

[Swordlady]

So... what you are saying is this is not the sword for me to order?

LOL! Um...no. I would also stay away from BudK. The last time I checked, they didn't have a single *functional* sword on their site. Oh wait...I take that back. They now have a couple Cold Steel swords for sale.

Thanks for posting a link to that video. I posted a link to it in the Stickied "Anatomy of a wallhanger katana" thread.

Edited to correct the URL.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Interestingly enough, I do own the object in the video. LOL

I wouldn't recommend it be used for anything other than dust collecting. lol

 

[Bigshadow]

I thought I would never see the day where Bud K would actually be mentioned on this site! :rofl: Their stuff is just for collecting dust as Bob said. They are the internet version of the fleamarket sword dealer(s). HAHAHA :rofl:

 

[Calm Intention]

*Too bad if that makes you feel inferior or anything,
**. I refuse to give you any sort of encouragement. I consider what you are doing to be quite dangerous, and it could potentially have a backlash onto those of us that actually train under a legitimate instructor.

***Your excuses for not learning are simply that ... excuses. Everyone else on here that has had the desire to learn has figured out a way to get to legitimate training, you prefer not to. Also, you cannot turn on and off your attitude. It is part of who you are. I think I can safely say that you would not last very long in my dojo. I've watched dozens just like you come and go.

?I explained to you why you were likely to get nothing but antagonism on this forum. However, you refuse to listen to anything that isn't your own thought already.

?and believe that we are all wrong and that you know better

?it won't keep you from getting harrassed for those views.

*I've expressed inferiority concern here, or are you misreading again?
Limited dictionary= limited understanding, and ability to convey
...or do you just wish to hit below for some unconscious reason?

**I respect that answer, and I agree

***Hmmm, putting one apple in with the whole bunch, based on a
limited set of traits you recognize......quite dangerous if employed
in a jury setting, handwriting analysis, and a multiplicity of other
real life circumstances....Doctor- thankyou for the evaluation
Tell me, what is my current state of health, sleep patterns, stress levels, peripheral events
that disallow me to run my life as I'd like it?
I've bradyacardia(spell check), which at times sends my heart down to mid to upper 30 bpm.
Yes, paradox, because for my age, I'm probably in better shape than some 20 year olds- but
I must watch the heart, and avoid all stress possible.
I've also a neurological issue that can cause me to freeze, slur, cause mental confusion.

I guess you know all this right? That telepathy thing?

?: ?>? you do admit antagonism vs. criticism then
?: ?>? precious, redundant attempt to malign and confuse what I've
said
?: ?>? are you speaking for everyone with this 'harrassment, and the
antagonism'? Is this the 'method' of teaching?

Well, you did mention the word 'criticism' once, so I think you possibly
mistaked your words. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In all honesty, I feel like someone who's always been others door mat(for one reason or another), and have not been able to lead my life as I would have liked to; and that is why it hurts alot when this judgement about me not having 'what it takes' is made of me.
Yep, I've some problems; especially the last few years.
There is no way I could give the type dedication required for this art, nor any other,, but I am dedicated to my personal workouts,, and as I have said, I do not recommend what I do to anyone else- I'm a very consciencious person, and conscious of what is right and wrong.

Also,, my shift in attitude(if noticed), is Mr. Jack Daniels speaking, and that is another issue that I must deal with. And if I can't give that up, I am not material for your art and discipline.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Also,, my shift in attitude(if noticed), is Mr. Jack Daniels speaking, and that is another issue that I must deal with. And if I can't give that up, I am not material for your art and discipline.

Actually on that point you'd be wrong. Those of us who don't drink are the ones out of place in the JSA world

Look, none of us care enough about you to deliberately try to tear you down. You posted some things which are not generally accepted, namely the idea that you can train in a meaningful and safe way without needing proper instruction. Most of us recognize this as a dangerous thing to advocate online and we chose to speak up and point out that it was a bad idea and encouraged you to find proper instruction. As has been pointed out, those of us who do train feel responsible to make sure that when these assertions are made, they are challenged so that other readers will not think this is a safe and acceptable way to train. You got real defensive instead of acknowledging or accepting the advice.

It's really that simple. As to your personal problems, they aren't relevant to the core issue, that being the acceptability of self training without any form of instruction. Long story short, swords are built to kill people. They are dangerous weapons, even when training alone, even when not hitting anything with them.

Can you at least acknowledge that the forum community has a responsibility to advice people against behaviors and activities deemed to be irresponsible and dangerous?

 

[Calm Intention]

:idunno: Actually on that point you'd be wrong. Those of us who don't drink are the ones out of place in the JSA world

:idunno: Look, none of us care enough about you to deliberately try to tear you down.
You posted some things which are not generally accepted, namely the idea that you can train in a meaningful and safe way without needing proper instruction. Most of us recognize this as a dangerous thing to advocate online and we chose to speak up and point out that it was a bad idea and encouraged you to find proper instruction. As has been pointed out, those of us who do train feel responsible to make sure that when these assertions are made, they are challenged so that other readers will not think this is a safe and acceptable way to train. You got real defensive instead of acknowledging or accepting the advice.

It's really that simple.
??As to your personal problems, they aren't relevant to the core issue, that being the acceptability of self training without any form of instruction. Long story short, swords are built to kill people. They are dangerous weapons, even when training alone, even when not hitting anything with them.

!!Can you at least acknowledge that the forum community has a responsibility to advice people against behaviors and activities deemed to be irresponsible and dangerous?

Hey Charles,
!!Are you being a wiseguy, or haven't you read my multiple attestments to
what you're asking? I don't like wiseguys...so you'll know. I have repeatedly confessed this.

And Charles, you personally should never be anyones Sensei(just look at the bold type I circumscribed around your comments); you've a problem son. Get over yourself.

 

[Lisa]

SECOND MODERATOR WARNING:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Charles Mahan]

Hey Charles,
!!Are you being a wiseguy, or haven't you read my multiple attestments to
what you're asking? I don't like wiseguys...so you'll know. I have repeatedly confessed this.

And Charles, you personally should never be anyones Sensei(just look at the bold type I circumscribed around your comments); you've a problem son. Get over yourself.

No I'm not being a wise guy. You've said a lot of things you later retracted. I just wanted to be sure I understood you on that point.

As to the bold type...

If you knew much about JSA and the people who train in them, you'd know that going out to drink together is virtually inseperable from the arts. It can be difficult for those, like myself, who do not drink.

The second quote was an attempt on my part to point out that we have no vendetta against you and that it would be silly to think we do as we don't know you well enough to bother.

Finish reading the third post, including the stuff you didn't bother to bold. I think that one explains itself.

As for the last bit, as I said earlier I was just trying to verify your stance on the issue.

As for your opinion of my worthiness to teach, as I mentioned before, I am not an instructor, nor do I play one on the internet. You are of course welcome to your opinion, and quite welcome not to train with me. In addition as suggested by the moderator, you are welcome to choose the ignore feature on any poster whose opinions you no longer wish to read. I am at a loss as to why you think any of the text you bolded has any bearing on my fitness to be an instructor.

 

[pgsmith]

Mr. Intentions,
You seem to be a pretty angry individual. Not sure why, and don't really care either. I am also not sure why you continue to post here since the vast majority are diametrically opposed to your point of view. Perhaps you simply enjoy having people argue with you?

What I do know is that I have no help, advice, or conversation to give you, so I will simply ignore you and your posts from this point forward. Play with your swords all you like, you can even label it "training" if that makes you feel better. But always bear in mind that it has absolutely no relation to what I, or most of the people on this forum, do.

Good luck in your endeavours, and try to stay safe!

 

[Calm Intention]

No I'm not being a wise guy. You've said a lot of things you later retracted. I just wanted to be sure I understood you on that point.

As to the bold type...

If you knew much about JSA and the people who train in them, you'd know that going out to drink together is virtually inseperable from the arts. It can be difficult for those, like myself, who do not drink.

The second quote was an attempt on my part to point out that we have no vendetta against you and that it would be silly to think we do as we don't know you well enough to bother.

Finish reading the third post, including the stuff you didn't bother to bold. I think that one explains itself.

As for the last bit, as I said earlier I was just trying to verify your stance on the issue.

As for your opinion of my worthiness to teach, as I mentioned before, I am not an instructor, nor do I play one on the internet. You are of course welcome to your opinion, and quite welcome not to train with me. In addition as suggested by the moderator, you are welcome to choose the ignore feature on any poster whose opinions you no longer wish to read. I am at a loss as to why you think any of the text you bolded has any bearing on my fitness to be an instructor.

Charles,

I am sorry. Please read what I wrote to Don on the other thread.
I got angry for no reason. I re-read what you wrote, and I misconstrued
part of your comment(the 'care enough' part). In my head(at the time), I interpreted it as meaning that when I stated some problems of mine, that no one gave a ________. Now I see it as you meant it, and I am suffering a guilt trip for my stupidity.
As I said on the other thread, I think(i know actually), that I am projecting some personal issues into all this, and frankly, I am an embarrassment.
I chose 'calm intention', and I've been anything but that. Somewhat funny if I think about it, but definitely not funny in retrospect.

Still, I think some things I've said were taken out of context at times, and that is part of what irritated me.
I really do have alot of respect for you guys/gals and what you do, and I am not anywhere near your league(and I don't believe I've indicated such, though one or two here have tried to say I have).

If anyone read the last comment on the other thread, I relent, and it is simply 'play' when you have no formal instruction(though I take what I do seriously).
In fact, the comments over the past week, have made me more determined to focus myself on what I do.

Charles, you may very well be someones Sensei one day, and I am sorry for my minus of Aikido spirit.

 

[Charles Mahan]

Charles, you may very well be someones Sensei one day, and I am sorry for my minus of Aikido spirit.

I'm afraid that is inevitable whatever my wishes on the subject. One day I will have to give back what I've been taking.

At any rate, I think you are using a writing style called stream of conciousness. Basically, it amounts to posting whatever pops into your head without too much thought or content checking. It's a great way to do creative writing, especially in the age of word processors that allow you to go back over what you wrote countless times and make adjustments.

It is absolutely lousy for use on forums. Forums posts are notorious for being read multiple different ways by different people. It is very easy to think you are posting one thing, and for someone else to read something very different, as evidenced by the things you thought you read in my posts. It's very different than talking to someone in person. There is no body language, no intonation, nothing to go by other than the actual text and wording of the text. It is a media that does not lend itself to stream of conciousness writing. If you want to be taken seriously in the forums, it helps to get away from this style.

Spend some time thinking about what you are posting. Go back and read it again before you submit. Remember that there is a limited window to edit it your post. After that time frame expires, your post is set in stone. Worse, it's preserved by search engines and forum archives. It is quite possible that future generations will be reading your posts 20 or 30 years from. It pays to be very circumspect in your posting. That way you can mitigate the side affects of foot in mouth disease.

Anyway. No one is asking you to leave the forum. Quite the contrary. If I were you, I'd spend some time reading archive posts, both here and over at http://www.swordforum.com and http://www.e-budo.com . Don't forget you can make use of the search feature of the forums to look for particular topics.

 

[Calm Intention]

At any rate, I think you are using a writing style called stream of conciousness. Basically, it amounts to posting whatever pops into your head without too much thought or content checking. It's a great way to do creative writing, especially in the age of word processors that allow you to go back over what you wrote countless times and make adjustments.

It is absolutely lousy for use on forums. Forums posts are notorious for being read multiple different ways by different people. It is very easy to think you are posting one thing, and for someone else to read something very different, as evidenced by the things you thought you read in my posts. It's very different than talking to someone in person. There is no body language, no intonation, nothing to go by other than the actual text and wording of the text.
Spend some time thinking about what you are posting. Go back and read it again before you submit. Remember that there is a limited window to edit it your post. After that time frame expires, your post is set in stone. Worse, it's preserved by search engines and forum archives. It is quite possible that future generations will be reading your posts 20 or 30 years from. It pays to be very circumspect in your posting. That way you can mitigate the side affects of foot in mouth disease.

I will agree on my employing 'steam of consciousness' type thinking/writing.
One thing though(the reason I emboldened),, having distressed over what I thought were selective avoidance of the better parts of things I acknowledged others here had written, I wonder if what happened on another website could be possibly happening here.

There are individuals with vast computer skills who are capable of cloning discussion boards, accessing the PM function, setting others ignore function so they can't see what was written- or not all that is written, editing someones comments selectively, etc.
I bring this up, because I was a victim of this, and I'm certain others have been also.
These 'other websites'(mostly political), have alot of hanky panky going on, so although that might seem quite paranoid, its a reality.

 

[Ojiisan]

These 'other websites'(mostly political), have alot of hanky panky going on, so although that might seem quite paranoid, its a reality.

Dude, you need to get a grip on reality.

 

[Lisa]

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Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator