Self Defence or Murder .. a fine line.

[K-man]

I was about to post this in the anti-grappling thread but it deserves a life of its own.

The details are a little sketchy but what we have here is a mixture of alcohol and testosterone. Also a salient lesson to those who say martial art techniques whether used by a martial artist or an untrained person don't cause death.

In this instance a young man who had drunk too much on his way home stopped for some takeaway food. He bumped into another person who pushed him away. The next details are unknown until it gets to court but the young man ends up on the ground. A third man, friend of the guy who was bumped, intervenes and stomps on the guy on the ground killing him. He is now charged with murder.

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What I would like to point out is ..

* Being under the influence of drugs and alcohol, especially in public, is a bad choice.
* If you do knock into someone, apologise and move on.
* Being on the ground, one way or the other, is not a good place to be.
* If you are in an altercation with one person you need to be aware of whether his friends are likely to become involved.
* If a friend is in an altercation and you intervene you must only use 'reasonable force'.

The guy who was pushed is not being charged, his friend who jumped in using lethal force is charged with murder and a very talented young man is dead. Two lives destroyed, two families devastated and all over an incident that shouldn't have happened in the first place.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

He got thrown to the ground, and the friend came up and stomped him on the head.

Its pretty clearly murder, since once the guy hit the ground, he was no longer a threat to either of them. Also the martial art move didn't kill him, the blows to the head did.

Why were you going to post this in the anti-grappling thread? Knowing some grappling (counter throws, break falling, etc.) might have saved his life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He got thrown to the ground, and the friend came up and stomped him on the head.

Its pretty clearly murder, since once the guy hit the ground, he was no longer a threat to either of them. Also the martial art move didn't kill him, the blows to the head did.

Why were you going to post this in the anti-grappling thread? Knowing some grappling (counter throws, break falling, etc.) might have saved his life.

A friend of mine, his son was killed this way. There were too much blood in his son's skull even the ER doctor gave up.

This is why when you fall, not only you need to protect your head from hitting on the hard ground, you also need to protect your head from someone who may kick you from on top. If you can curve your body into a small area, you can reduce your body area that may be exposed to be attacked by your standing up opponent. But compare to your body, your head is much more important than your body.

Unfortunately, this is the opposite of the "pull guard" and "jump guard" that are popular in today's modern trend. Also the normal Judo break fall may not save your head from being kicked either.

 

[Marnetmar]

He got thrown to the ground, and the friend came up and stomped him on the head.

Its pretty clearly murder, since once the guy hit the ground, he was no longer a threat to either of them. Also the martial art move didn't kill him, the blows to the head did.

Why were you going to post this in the anti-grappling thread? Knowing some grappling (counter throws, break falling, etc.) might have saved his life.

Because grapplers are bullies, duh.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Because grapplers are bullies, duh.

Not sure who is more bully, the striker or the grappler?

 

[drop bear]

That street fighting is dumb. Leave it for the ring.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H6ghVfU_xo4

 

[K-man]

He got thrown to the ground, and the friend came up and stomped him on the head.

Its pretty clearly murder, since once the guy hit the ground, he was no longer a threat to either of them. Also the martial art move didn't kill him, the blows to the head did.

Why were you going to post this in the anti-grappling thread? Knowing some grappling (counter throws, break falling, etc.) might have saved his life.

You must know more than me as what you have stated hasn't been in any of our papers. As far as I know he was pushed or thrown to the ground. There is nothing to say he hit his head. There is nothing to say whether there was any altercation on the ground so obviously again you know more than anyone here. There is nothing to say anyone was trained as a martial artist. It was the martial art move that killed him, that is the stomp. You say it was to the head, I might have suspected the neck but either way it is a standard technique in Karate and Krav. I am suggesting you need to be very sure of what you are doing in any street fight and be clear as to whether fighting can even be justified.

It had been stated many times on this forum that people would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. Here is a guy that shouldn't have even been involved ending up charged with murder. According to you it is "pretty clearly murder" so I suppose there is no reason to even have a trial. I would suggest that the charge is murder because of this state's crackdown on sucker punches. By the time it comes to trial it may well be a lesser charge.

Why the anti-grappling thread? Purely because it was there and it was an instance where the guy on the ground was attacked by a second person with devastating consequences. The ground is not a good place to be.

 

[drop bear]

You must know more than me as what you have stated hasn't been in any of our papers. As far as I know he was pushed or thrown to the ground. There is nothing to say he hit his head. There is nothing to say whether there was any altercation on the ground so obviously again you know more than anyone here. There is nothing to say anyone was trained as a martial artist. It was the martial art move that killed him, that is the stomp. You say it was to the head, I might have suspected the neck but either way it is a standard technique in Karate and Krav. I am suggesting you need to be very sure of what you are doing in any street fight and be clear as to whether fighting can even be justified.

It had been stated many times on this forum that people would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. Here is a guy that shouldn't have even been involved ending up charged with murder. According to you it is "pretty clearly murder" so I suppose there is no reason to even have a trial. I would suggest that the charge is murder because of this state's crackdown on sucker punches. By the time it comes to trial it may well be a lesser charge.

Why the anti-grappling thread? Purely because it was there and it was an instance where the guy on the ground was attacked by a second person with devastating consequences. The ground is not a good place to be.

No it really won't get downgraded. You go to court on a drunk violence charge you are pretty much done.

 

[Hanzou]

You must know more than me as what you have stated hasn't been in any of our papers. As far as I know he was pushed or thrown to the ground. There is nothing to say he hit his head. There is nothing to say whether there was any altercation on the ground so obviously again you know more than anyone here. There is nothing to say anyone was trained as a martial artist. It was the martial art move that killed him, that is the stomp. You say it was to the head, I might have suspected the neck but either way it is a standard technique in Karate and Krav. I am suggesting you need to be very sure of what you are doing in any street fight and be clear as to whether fighting can even be justified.

It had been stated many times on this forum that people would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six. Here is a guy that shouldn't have even been involved ending up charged with murder. According to you it is "pretty clearly murder" so I suppose there is no reason to even have a trial. I would suggest that the charge is murder because of this state's crackdown on sucker punches. By the time it comes to trial it may well be a lesser charge.

Why the anti-grappling thread? Purely because it was there and it was an instance where the guy on the ground was attacked by a second person with devastating consequences. The ground is not a good place to be.

I got the information from the article you posted. The article said that he was flipped "upside down" and landed on the ground. The second guy then came up and stomped his head in over and over again.

Head stomping on the ground is seriously considered a martial arts move that you teach? Your students better be very careful with that. That's a quick way to end up in jail for a very long time.

As for being on the ground, every situation isn't a multiple assailant situation...

Five Reasons to Grapple in a Streetfight | Grapplearts

 

[Paul_D]

Head stomping on the ground is seriously considered a martial arts move that you teach?

Why wouldn't you teach it? It's in Naihanchi so if you teach Naihanchi you teach the application.

Practical Kata Bunkai: Naihanchi / Tekki Shodan - YouTube

Teaching it in the dojo, and using outside the dojo however are two completely different things.

 

[Tez3]

Why wouldn't you teach it? It's in Naihanchi so if you teach Naihanchi you teach the application.

Practical Kata Bunkai: Naihanchi / Tekki Shodan - YouTube

Teaching it in the dojo, and using outside the dojo however are two completely different things.

Stomps can be allowed in MMA fights, some promotions don't allow them, some still do.

 

[Hanzou]

Why wouldn't you teach it? It's in Naihanchi so if you teach Naihanchi you teach the application.

Because there's little reason to ever stomp someone in the head.

 

[Buka]

My opinion - second degree murder. A stomp to the head? I can't even come up with a scenario where I'd do that. A kick, maybe, but a stomp? I consider that a finishing blow. I teach a lot of things, but I never taught a stomp, never will, either. (Tactically, I don't think it's even needed, it's instinctual)

Also, I don't think anything whatsoever about this incident belongs in anything that has to do with grappling in any way, shape or form.

 

[Paul_D]

Because there's little reason to ever stomp someone in the head.

There's little reason to cut someoen in half, doesn't stop people enjoying Iaido.

 

[Hanzou]

There's little reason to cut someoen in half, doesn't stop people enjoying Iaido.

There's way more to Iado than cutting people in half.

Stomping someone on the head really serves no purpose beyond trying to kill someone. The person is already on the ground, and probably no longer a threat to you. It would be like me not releasing a choke after the guy has already passed out.

 

[Paul_D]

Yes of course, but it was an example to illustrate the point that just becasue something has no place or no purpose outside the dojo it doesn't stop you practising it inside the dojo.

 

[Steve]

Why the anti-grappling thread? Purely because it was there and it was an instance where the guy on the ground was attacked by a second person with devastating consequences. The ground is not a good place to be.

I don't know a lot about the legal implications and there is surely a lot we don't know about what happened, so whether he'll get charged with murder is beyond me.

But, this last statement is interesting to me. Somehow, the implication of your statement is probably different for me than what you intend. A statement like this in a situation like this, and my first thought was, "It's a shame that the victim wasn't a better grappler than the guy who took him down."

There's little reason to cut someoen in half, doesn't stop people enjoying Iaido.

You understand that by saying that the head stomp is like cutting someone in half with a sword in iaido (a martial art style using swords), you are drawing a host of unintended conclusions with which I doubt k-man or any of the rbsd guys here would agree.

 

[Steve]

Yes of course, but it was an example to illustrate the point that just becasue something has no place or no purpose outside the dojo it doesn't stop you practising it inside the dojo.

Oh, I stand corrected. It seems like you are doing it on purpose. I'm very interested to know whether the RBSD guys around here agree that a head stomp has no place or purpose outside the dojo.

When I talk to Iaido guys about why they train in that martial art, I hear reasons relating to culture (i.e. samurai culture, japanese culture, asian interest), or historical (interest in swordplay, in that era of Japan, etc). Of course, there are other benefits as well, the same as with pursuit of any hobby or interest. But, culture and history are very common. Same as with Kyudo.

Conversely, guys who train in RBSD or styles such as Krav Maga seldom talk about history or culture. The emphasis is always practical self defense and real world application. Based upon what I've learned here over the years, I gather the head stomp is considered a practical, viable self defense technique.

I have to be honest, we've talked about whether the triangle choke is a "dojo only" technique. Kong Soo Do and others have been hammering that point home for weeks now. I'm thrilled to learn that they also teach impractical, dojo only techniques.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, I stand corrected. It seems like you are doing it on purpose. I'm very interested to know whether the RBSD guys around here agree that a head stomp has no place or purpose outside the dojo.

When I talk to Iaido guys about why they train in that martial art, I hear reasons relating to culture (i.e. samurai culture, japanese culture, asian interest), or historical (interest in swordplay, in that era of Japan, etc). Of course, there are other benefits as well, the same as with pursuit of any hobby or interest. But, culture and history are very common. Same as with Kyudo.

Conversely, guys who train in RBSD or styles such as Krav Maga seldom talk about history or culture. The emphasis is always practical self defense and real world application. Based upon what I've learned here over the years, I gather the head stomp is considered a practical, viable self defense technique.

I have to be honest, we've talked about whether the triangle choke is a "dojo only" technique. Kong Soo Do and others have been hammering that point home for weeks now. I'm thrilled to learn that they also teach impractical, dojo only techniques.

I don' think there's anything here to imply that KSD and others teach impractical dojo only techniques. I don't think you can get that from Paul's post.

I also don't get from the newspaper article that any of them are martial artists so being a 'better' grappler than the attacker would be academic. Being able to drop someone on the floor is something that can come from a couple of sports, the two codes of rugby and Aussie rules.

 

[Steve]

I don' think there's anything here to imply that KSD and others teach impractical dojo only techniques. I don't think you can get that from Paul's post.

I also don't get from the newspaper article that any of them are martial artists so being a 'better' grappler than the attacker would be academic. Being able to drop someone on the floor is something that can come from a couple of sports, the two codes of rugby and Aussie rules.

You're right. Maybe they don't teach a head stomp, which Paul D asserts is an impractical, dojo only technique much the same as a sword cut in Iaido.

Regarding the "better" statement, I don't know what you're getting on about. It's very simple. If he had been a better grappler than the other guy, he would have stayed on his feet AND/OR regained his feet. Unfortunately for him, he was not.

Or, are you suggesting that there are times when anyone could find themselves on the ground in a bad situation? Because that could also be an interesting line of discussion, echoing some points I've made in other threads.