Selective Breaking

[True Austinite]

Anybody have any experience in this skill? Is this related to the Chinese method of fa-jing? What are the "physics" and characteristics of the technique (as opposed to a more basic kind of punch or strike), and where should one go to begin learning it? Thanks.

 

[dancingalone]

Please define selective breaking. Do you mean tameshiwari? Like breaking only the bottom concrete slab in a stack of slabs?

 

[True Austinite]

Yes. Like if you have a stack of 7 bricks, choosing to break only the 3rd or 4th brick while keeping the others unharmed.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Watched too many movies, did you?
Life is not like 'bloodsport'
Breaking doesn't work like that. With bricks it is pretty much a parlor trick that some can do if they arrange the stones just right. With wooden boards it is a matter of luck and knowing just how to stack the boards.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Watched too many movies, did you?
Life is not like 'bloodsport'
Breaking doesn't work like that. With bricks it is pretty much a parlor trick that some can do if they arrange the stones just right. With wooden boards it is a matter of luck and knowing just how to stack the boards.

You can do it then? When I tried, I couldn't. Still learning it.

 

[Cirdan]

Can`t say I`ve ever heard of the concept of fa jing (sp?) applied to this kind of breaking, but then again none of my friends practice breaking either.

 

[Bruno@MT]

You can do it then? When I tried, I couldn't. Still learning it.

I can't, but I've seen it done. There are also some clips on youtube explaining some of the tricks. In the end, there is nothing mystical about breaking stuff. It is physics. The key to these 'special' breaks is to make sure that the stress on the desired brick / board is greater than the stress on the others, or to stress them the same but to make sure that the effect on the desired brick / board has a different effect.

 

[clfsean]

Anybody have any experience in this skill? Is this related to the Chinese method of fa-jing? What are the "physics" and characteristics of the technique (as opposed to a more basic kind of punch or strike), and where should one go to begin learning it? Thanks.

Get in touch with Dale Dugas at Boston Bagua Zhang.

 

[seasoned]

Like hitting a nail with a hammer. If you grab the hammer handle very tightly and hit the nail you will get results. Then, if you grasp the hammer handle and swing the hammer letting the momentum carry the hammer head onto the nail, and allow a slight rebound before swinging again, your are on the right tract for penetration of power.

Now it is up to you to equate this to you punch.:asian:

 

[geezer]

Anybody have any experience in this skill? Is this related to the Chinese method of fa-jing? What are the "physics" and characteristics of the technique (as opposed to a more basic kind of punch or strike), and where should one go to begin learning it? Thanks.

I can do that. At least I could back in the mid 80's. I even included it in a story on "Martial Arts Magic Tricks" published in Inside-Kung Fu (which was a halfway decent magazine back then). I would stack three or for bricks or pavers, with or without spacers, and break whichever brick you asked for... top, bottom or one of the middle ones. Honest.

Well, actually, I did pretty well with the spaced pavers, but wasn't very consistent with the un-spaced bricks. Still, I got so I could do those better than half the time. Not bad for a second rate martial artist. And, no, I'm not telling you guys the trick.... just that there was a trick involved. Oh the bricks were real, and I did have to learn to hit hard enough to break at least one... but beyond that, let's just say that I learned how to do a little "magic". And if I could figure it out, so could anybody else. And if it can be done easily by trickery, you can bet that even if it is possible to do it by skill alone, 99.9% of the guys that do this are using the trick. Especially if they are using it to build their reps and make money off of it. Try reading anything by The Amazing Randi and you'll see where I'm coming from!

 

[True Austinite]

Yeah, I'm aware of the trickery out there. I asked this because I read a description of fa jin as being a strike where the opponent's external is not injured, but his internal is, and this reminded me of the selective breaking and I wondered if there was a connection.

 

[geezer]

Yeah, I'm aware of the trickery out there. I asked this because I read a description of fa jin as being a strike where the opponent's external is not injured, but his internal is, and this reminded me of the selective breaking and I wondered if there was a connection.

I suppose there could be a connection, but in most cases I think it's probably a combination of the kind of blow (speed, power, penetration, and so forth) and where it impacts on the human anatomy. A concussion for example, doesn't have to injure the scalp or break the skull to cause hemorrhaging in the brain beneath. Similarly a massive blow to to the mid-section may cause damage to your internal organs without seriously hurting the more resilient musculature that cover them. And these kinds of effects can be achieved by ordinary fighters, or be the results of common accidents such as a fall or car crash... no need to find a master of internal power to account for such effects.

 

[True Austinite]

Yes, but I'm wondering if there's perhaps a systematic method of using this kind of power without having to build incredible external force, and using it consistently and reliably in a martial art?

 

[geezer]

Yes, but I'm wondering if there's perhaps a systematic method of using this kind of power without having to build incredible external force, and using it consistently and reliably in a martial art?

Well, remember that there is some question as to whether what you termed "selective breaking" is even possible without trickery. I once knew a northern style shifu who was also a structural engineer. He maintained that stresses could conceivably be generated in such a way as to cause this to happen. But is trying to achieve this effect practical? Could you ever use it, as you say, "consistently and reliably"? Or similarly, could you consistently and reliably use subtle techniques of hitting precise accu-pressure points or "dim mak"? More than one high ranking sifu including a certain Chinese "grandmaster" have told me that this is not practical. In a real fight against a decent opponent it can be hard enough to get in a good clean shot without trying to achieve something as esoteric as what would be required to do what you are talking about.

That said, in the Ving Tsun system I study, we do train different ways of releasing our energy. A punch can be made to release at the surface (stinging without damaging much), or it can be made to throw you back bodily (like a shock wave), or far worse, to penetrate deep inside while your body stays still and crumples to the floor. One of the best people who can teach and explain these various practical effects is Master Jeff Webb, located in your town. Look him up.

 

[jonbey]

Interesting how you describe the different types of punch. A kickboxing instructor once explained the differences in light, medium and full contact in a similar way (he taught all 3 types of tournament fighting).

Light, well, light, just a touch.
Medium moves - its more a push. Does not damage as the energy is transferred to moving he opponent.
Full content - same as internal damage - you are not aiming to put on a show (i.e. push them across the ring) but to hurt.

How you strike determines the outcome, and it is not just kung-fu / internal external styles that differentiate. It is simply a mechanical thing.

An easier way to demonstrate it is to say it is the difference between a slap, a push and a stamp.

Oh, I almost forgot to make my point. The point is, you can only break something with a stamp. A slap or a push cannot break.

 

[jks9199]

I've been taught that there are three ways to hit: at, on, or in. If you hit at, you're not really making contact, you're stopping just before. If you do actually make contact, it should be nothing but a very light touch. Hitting on means you're stopping at the surface of the target, with no penetration. Hitting in or through is just that -- going deeper beyond the surface.

Any strike can be explosive, or pushy. It depends on how you throw it... If it's a relatively long contact, it's a push. If it's quick and hard -- it becomes explosive. I'm over simplifying, but this is stuff that doesn't go into words real well.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I can't, but I've seen it done. There are also some clips on youtube explaining some of the tricks. In the end, there is nothing mystical about breaking stuff. It is physics. The key to these 'special' breaks is to make sure that the stress on the desired brick / board is greater than the stress on the others, or to stress them the same but to make sure that the effect on the desired brick / board has a different effect.

Physics is pretty damn mystical. Hence, so many mystics are into physics, and vice versa. My stepdad is a practicing Chasidic jew, and a micro-biologist, and the way he describes science and mysticism as two faces of the same coin.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Hitting on means you're stopping at the surface of the target, with no penetration.

There's a dirty joke to be had here...

 

[Bruno@MT]

Physics is pretty damn mystical. Hence, so many mystics are into physics, and vice versa. My stepdad is a practicing Chasidic jew, and a micro-biologist, and the way he describes science and mysticism as two faces of the same coin.

I am not talking about vague things or theoretical ideas, I am talking about practical mechanics. Things like the way the bricks are stacked, the foundation that supports the bricks, possible spacers, type and magnitude of the impact etc. No mysticism or invisible Ki energy needed.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I am not talking about vague things or theoretical ideas, I am talking about practical mechanics. Things like the way the bricks are stacked, the foundation that supports the bricks, possible spacers, type and magnitude of the impact etc. No mysticism or invisible Ki energy needed.

I guess we understand chi differently. I was taught there are many types of chi, some visable, some not.

But I must beg to differ with what you said. Kinetic energy is involved in a break. Can you see kinetic energy? Kinetic energy is a type of chi. An invisible energy that fits within both the western and the eastern framework.