Seeking advice from club and school owners

[jasonbrinn]

I recognize that people will come to MA for a variety of different reasons. I feel I could accomodate any reason people wanted to come to training for with the exception of competition. Most peoplewho have joined my dojo were looking for self-defense or just a simple outlet to try something new.

If you are looking to make a living and teaching Martial arts as your business then this is what you NEED to focus on . I would routinely give small "surveys" to students, not to mention their initial signup form was basically one, in order to find goals, desires, concerns and then make sure to work those in somehow in the training.

In the business of Martial Arts the actual style and curriculum is really the smallest aspect of importance. If you feel that the style and or curriculum takes priority then you should honestly consider doing a different business and teaching on the side, unless you are independently wealthy.

People "say" they want to train XYZ, but there is always a deeper reason it seems.
People "say" they quit because of one thing or another but it always seems to be a different reason.
Routing out people's REAL reasons for training and keeping them happy is the key to any good and growing business.

 

[Aiki Lee]

This might sound odd, but I'd advise not thinking about accommodating students at all. That's not what you're there for. There's a big difference between understanding what their aims are, and skewing what you teach towards that... I personally have no interest in accommodating anyone, though. As soon as I start thinking along those lines, the very thing that I'm teaching starts to get lost. I have no problem sending potential, former, even currently training students to other teachers or arts, if what they're after conflicts with what I offer.

Perhaps my choice of wording was poor. It's not that I'd change what I'm doing to meet their needs rather, I feel that what i offer could meet a variety of needs. If someone is not looking for what I am offering then I would not be averse to pointing them to other locations in the area. Things I suppose I would accomdate would be more drill or conditioning aspects. If I have a bunch of people who can't do much due to being out of shape, I might add a more rigorous work out, but I'd never change any of the curriculum I offer without prior consent from the head of the organization.

In the end, it's far better to have a clear understanding of what you're offering, rather than allowing the students to dictate, even to a degree. How things are taught can be based on the student group, but what is taught is another matter.

I agree completely. I never meant to imply I would show students what they want, but I may change how I present to them what they need, to be successful at studying aiki ninjutsu that is.

Okay. I'd still be cautious about such motivations, as it can be quite a fair amount of unfair pressure on yourself (whether you realize it or not... if it works, you're not getting the benefit in any way, and if it doesn't, you've "failed in your duty", and have to commit seppuku...).

LOL. I hope it doesn't come to that! I'm not going into this with my head in clouds. Martial arts has done a lot for me and I wish to pass that to others. What they get out of it is up to them, but I can try to present what I know the best I can and hope I'm providing a meaningful experience to them. The benefits I get from it is that hopefully I make a significant difference in someone's life by interacting with them through martial arts training. If I'm in a teaching role, it motivates me to be more diligent in my own training so I can represent the organization better. Even if it turns out to be a total failure I still lose nothing except for some personal time. Without too many outside obligations, now would be a good time for me to do this and make my mistakes early on.

As I said, there really are only two reasons that I've come across that work for any form of longevity in teaching... otherwise it's very easy to get burned out, or crushed under the weight of such heady responsibility, especially when such responsibility only exists in your mind.

Burnout happens everywhere. Self-care is the key to avoiding it in my line of work. Curious what are the two reasons that work for teachers in your opinion?

Okay, that's part of it, but not the major aspect. For one thing, RBSD rarely has such a long-term methodology. I'd suggest that you're probably closer to us in that respect, which is more RBSD-influenced self defence methodology... but before going any further, I'd be wanting to see more of what your curriculum is in this regards. Bear in mind, of course, this isn't a judgement at all, just curiousness about the terminology being used.

I'll PM you about this so as not to derail the thread too much

 

[Aiki Lee]

I'll PM you about this so as not to derail the thread too much

Or not, as your mailbox is full. Shocking.
I believe you are asking how we incorporate RBSD methodologies into our program, yes?

We don't offer a RSBD class persay except for the SAFE (safety awareness fundamental education) seminars. Those seminars are 5 hour classes usually split into two days that are aimed at teenagers getting ready to enter a college atmosphere. These classes are not so much geared to make people confront a violent attack (its covered obviously) but rather to help them avoid the situations in the first place. Topics covered in these classes include importance of traveling with people, avoiding known dangerous locations, being aware of recent crime in the area, various forms of sexual assault, problems related to hazing, conflict resolution through verbal de-escalation, and other things that aren't coming to the top of my head at this time. When it comes to physical self-defense in this class emphasis is placed on a high-low striking strategy and finding space for escape. No body is going to master anything in an hour of physical practice, but it gives them some piece of mind.

In the actual martial arts classes RBSD concepts are sprinkled into training, but generally not given too much emphasis till the student reaches 5th kyu. The goal is to make everything as realistic as we can without alienating too many people. For example, when people start the verbal de-escalation, the shouting and facial expressions associated with a furious argument are present but numbers are shouted instead of words. As people progress, people create a scenario where the shouting is meant to distract the person and get them caught in "thinking mode". At higher levels, specific arguments are started meant to specifically push people's buttons. Are they religious? We blaspheme. Are they overwieght? We mock them. Anything to incite fury and adrenaline. You can see why this last one would be rarely done, and we have strong debriefing sessions to talk about them and make sure no one leaves thinking anyone believes the nonsense that was spewed at them.

During randori practice students in the attacker's role can pull hidden weapons on their partner or completely brake away and attack someone else who is not paying attention to essentially gang up on someone.
I'm exactly sure how much detail you are looking for or if I answered even remotely what you were asking. If not, remember I sometimes need it spelled out for me.

 

[Chris Parker]

If you are looking to make a living and teaching Martial arts as your business then this is what you NEED to focus on . I would routinely give small "surveys" to students, not to mention their initial signup form was basically one, in order to find goals, desires, concerns and then make sure to work those in somehow in the training.

In the business of Martial Arts the actual style and curriculum is really the smallest aspect of importance. If you feel that the style and or curriculum takes priority then you should honestly consider doing a different business and teaching on the side, unless you are independently wealthy.

People "say" they want to train XYZ, but there is always a deeper reason it seems.
People "say" they quit because of one thing or another but it always seems to be a different reason.
Routing out people's REAL reasons for training and keeping them happy is the key to any good and growing business.

Hmm, this is the path to McDojo territory, though, which is one reason it's generally frowned upon. The question becomes whether you're looking for a business plan, or if you're looking to pass on the art you've learnt. If you're looking for a business plan, and are following the ideal of supply and demand (people demand, you supply), then you will, by necessity, change what you're teaching and offering. And, to my mind (and most of the more traditionally minded as well), this is antithesis to teaching a particular martial art, as you're using an outside influence that has nothing to do with the art to alter it. If things get changed due to new and better information, due to experimentation and adaption, or so on, then that's one thing. If it changes because people want a "kick-boxing fitness program", then it no longer has the integrity that it once had. And, speaking for myself, I consider that the path to death in martial arts.

Perhaps my choice of wording was poor. It's not that I'd change what I'm doing to meet their needs rather, I feel that what i offer could meet a variety of needs. If someone is not looking for what I am offering then I would not be averse to pointing them to other locations in the area. Things I suppose I would accomdate would be more drill or conditioning aspects. If I have a bunch of people who can't do much due to being out of shape, I might add a more rigorous work out, but I'd never change any of the curriculum I offer without prior consent from the head of the organization.

I change what, and how I teach fairly often. In fact, I'm teaching knife defence again this month, and it's something we do fairly frequently, but this time around, I'm teaching it completely differently to any way I've taught it before. The distinction is why I change the way I teach... in essence, I ask myself a couple of simple questions, the most important (and relevant) being: "What is the best way to give the students the skills/knowledge/understanding/ability that I consider important for them at this point in time?" It might be interesting to note that not all of those aspects are necessarily, or even commonly involved... the first thing I do is figure out what's important in a given subject. Then I figure out what, out of those important aspects, is best to be presented. So it might be a particular skill set... or it might be an aspect of knowledge. Or a specific ability. Often there will be a cross-over, to a fair degree, but rarely will everything be the focus.

To take my look at knife defence this month, I'm looking at what I consider to be the fundamental skills... so there's little to no focus on 'techniques'. In fact, I haven't given any techniques at all. I've left a lot of the technical side of things rather vague, and up to the students themselves... but then again, I'm not interested in giving them 'techniques' this time around. Then again, maybe next time I will... depending on what is important when I come back to this subject.

My point is that I don't allow the students to dictate what I teach (in terms of their conscious wants, or desires), but I do design my lessons in terms of the best needs for them to learn what I have to teach. That way the students get the best possibility to learn the art as it exists, without compromising the art itself.

I agree completely. I never meant to imply I would show students what they want, but I may change how I present to them what they need, to be successful at studying aiki ninjutsu that is.

Good to hear.

LOL. I hope it doesn't come to that! I'm not going into this with my head in clouds. Martial arts has done a lot for me and I wish to pass that to others. What they get out of it is up to them, but I can try to present what I know the best I can and hope I'm providing a meaningful experience to them. The benefits I get from it is that hopefully I make a significant difference in someone's life by interacting with them through martial arts training. If I'm in a teaching role, it motivates me to be more diligent in my own training so I can represent the organization better. Even if it turns out to be a total failure I still lose nothing except for some personal time. Without too many outside obligations, now would be a good time for me to do this and make my mistakes early on.

Cool. You've hit upon the first reason there, by the way...

Some advice on teaching, then. Knowing the material is only one aspect, and, when it all comes down to it, probably isn't the most important one. Don't get me wrong, it's essential (on all levels, physically, intellectually, insight), but it's probably the simplest of all the different skill sets and traits required. To my mind, the two most important aspects to teaching effectively are developing your observation abilities, to be able to see everything going on in an entire room, both on a large and small scale (read Gorin no Sho and Machiavelli's The Prince for more on this), and to be able to develop your own personal and individual teaching personality. If you can't see what's happening through the entire room, then you can't guide your students. And if you can't develop your own personality, the students won't have anything that they can relate to, so you'll lose them. No matter how good your abilities and knowledge are, if you can't guide and correct students (which is how they'll grow), or keep them (as they can't relate to you), then you won't have any students, and your skill and understanding won't mean a thing (as a teacher).

Burnout happens everywhere. Self-care is the key to avoiding it in my line of work. Curious what are the two reasons that work for teachers in your opinion?

The first is, as you indicated above, to spur on your own development. The second is to develop others so that they can be your training partners. In other words, it needs to be about you, and what you get out of it... not the students. Yeah, that sounds harsh, but it keeps you motivated and energized, which means you're still there to give the students the benefits that they are after themselves.

I'll PM you about this so as not to derail the thread too much

Er...

Or not, as your mailbox is full. Shocking.

Yeah... sorry bout that.

I believe you are asking how we incorporate RBSD methodologies into our program, yes?

We don't offer a RSBD class persay except for the SAFE (safety awareness fundamental education) seminars. Those seminars are 5 hour classes usually split into two days that are aimed at teenagers getting ready to enter a college atmosphere. These classes are not so much geared to make people confront a violent attack (its covered obviously) but rather to help them avoid the situations in the first place. Topics covered in these classes include importance of traveling with people, avoiding known dangerous locations, being aware of recent crime in the area, various forms of sexual assault, problems related to hazing, conflict resolution through verbal de-escalation, and other things that aren't coming to the top of my head at this time. When it comes to physical self-defense in this class emphasis is placed on a high-low striking strategy and finding space for escape. No body is going to master anything in an hour of physical practice, but it gives them some piece of mind.

In the actual martial arts classes RBSD concepts are sprinkled into training, but generally not given too much emphasis till the student reaches 5th kyu. The goal is to make everything as realistic as we can without alienating too many people. For example, when people start the verbal de-escalation, the shouting and facial expressions associated with a furious argument are present but numbers are shouted instead of words. As people progress, people create a scenario where the shouting is meant to distract the person and get them caught in "thinking mode". At higher levels, specific arguments are started meant to specifically push people's buttons. Are they religious? We blaspheme. Are they overwieght? We mock them. Anything to incite fury and adrenaline. You can see why this last one would be rarely done, and we have strong debriefing sessions to talk about them and make sure no one leaves thinking anyone believes the nonsense that was spewed at them.

During randori practice students in the attacker's role can pull hidden weapons on their partner or completely brake away and attack someone else who is not paying attention to essentially gang up on someone.
I'm exactly sure how much detail you are looking for or if I answered even remotely what you were asking. If not, remember I sometimes need it spelled out for me.

Cool, that's kinda what I was expecting. Out of interest, is there a reason you wait until the student is 5th Kyu?

 

[lklawson]

Hmm, this is the path to McDojo territory, though, which is one reason it's generally frowned upon. The question becomes whether you're looking for a business plan, or if you're looking to pass on the art you've learnt. If you're looking for a business plan, and are following the ideal of supply and demand (people demand, you supply), then you will, by necessity, change what you're teaching and offering. And, to my mind (and most of the more traditionally minded as well), this is antithesis to teaching a particular martial art, as you're using an outside influence that has nothing to do with the art to alter it. If things get changed due to new and better information, due to experimentation and adaption, or so on, then that's one thing. If it changes because people want a "kick-boxing fitness program", then it no longer has the integrity that it once had. And, speaking for myself, I consider that the path to death in martial arts.

I don't agree at all, at least not with the way you've expressed your view.

Every student has a different reason for practicing martial arts. The most common ones listed are:

• Self Defense
• Exercise and Fitness
• Fun
• Discipline
• Self Confidence
• Cultural contexts

There are, of course, others. Now, I submit that these are just the reasons why a student starts but not why they continue. I believe it's usually the "fun" and fulfilling part that keeps 'em coming back. But, that aside, I've never spoken with any martial arts instructor that didn't believe the art he was teaching could not achieve any and all of the above listed goals.

You're a Ninjitsu guy, right? Would I be wrong in supposing that you believe Ninjitsu, as a martial art, can fulfill all of those goals? If you have 3 students show up, one is interested in SD, one in getting more fit, and the third one a teen who's parents want him to gain self confidence, would you be somehow perverting your art if you tailored what and how you taught each of them? Quite the contrary, in doing so you are being a versatile and good teacher. You are simply exposing different facets of your art and helping the students achieve their goals through your art.

Legend says that the Buddha taught martial arts to the monks at Shaolin as an exercise and health method but few adherents these days claim that practicing Shaolin Kung Fu for Self Defense is a perversion of the art.

Nah, in summary, I disagree that that it is wrong or non-traditional, or McDojo-ish to find out what your students goals are or what their reasons are for training and then using your martial art as a vehicle to help them toward that end.

While "questionnaires," entrance interviews, exit interviews, &tc. may seem overly McDojo-ish, they're not. They're simply a commonly accepted way in modern western culture to divine the needs of your student.

I'd also submit that it is equally traditional for martial arts instructors to be paid professionals looking to get rich off of teaching their skills. Lots of evidence for that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Aiki Lee]

Usually by around 5th kyu in our system, we have a better understanding of the student and a rough guess at how far we can push them without causing serious offense to them or frustrating them needlessly. Basic kata work and principle building is hard enough without adding in the stress training. We discuss it and experiment with it earlier than 5th kyu, but success is not expected until that level is reached. Up and until that point uke attacks with very basic and obvious attacking methods in order to drill the principle and work on mechanics. Most of the more stress inducing practices are done in our "mastery class" a class designed specifically for the higher kyus and BBs.

If we did these things earlier I think it would frighten some of the more timid students and they'd leave thinking we were nothing but bullies.

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't agree at all, at least not with the way you've expressed your view.

Every student has a different reason for practicing martial arts. The most common ones listed are:

• Self Defense
• Exercise and Fitness
• Fun
• Discipline
• Self Confidence
• Cultural contexts

There are, of course, others. Now, I submit that these are just the reasons why a student starts but not why they continue. I believe it's usually the "fun" and fulfilling part that keeps 'em coming back. But, that aside, I've never spoken with any martial arts instructor that didn't believe the art he was teaching could not achieve any and all of the above listed goals.

You're a Ninjitsu guy, right? Would I be wrong in supposing that you believe Ninjitsu, as a martial art, can fulfill all of those goals? If you have 3 students show up, one is interested in SD, one in getting more fit, and the third one a teen who's parents want him to gain self confidence, would you be somehow perverting your art if you tailored what and how you taught each of them? Quite the contrary, in doing so you are being a versatile and good teacher. You are simply exposing different facets of your art and helping the students achieve their goals through your art.

Legend says that the Buddha taught martial arts to the monks at Shaolin as an exercise and health method but few adherents these days claim that practicing Shaolin Kung Fu for Self Defense is a perversion of the art.

Nah, in summary, I disagree that that it is wrong or non-traditional, or McDojo-ish to find out what your students goals are or what their reasons are for training and then using your martial art as a vehicle to help them toward that end.

While "questionnaires," entrance interviews, exit interviews, &tc. may seem overly McDojo-ish, they're not. They're simply a commonly accepted way in modern western culture to divine the needs of your student.

I'd also submit that it is equally traditional for martial arts instructors to be paid professionals looking to get rich off of teaching their skills. Lots of evidence for that.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hi Kirk,

I'll clarify what I'm referring to. The main phrase I was answering was Jason's comment of: "In the business of Martial Arts the actual style and curriculum is really the smallest aspect of importance. If you feel that the style and or curriculum takes priority then you should honestly consider doing a different business and teaching on the side, unless you are independently wealthy." The way I read that is that the art itself takes a backseat to the student's wants and desires, which is what leads to McDojos and the like.

Once you decide that what you're teaching isn't as important as keeping students, and getting their cash, then the art suffers, and moves away from itself. For instance, I know of a Ninjutsu school here in Melbourne (a full time school, one of the very few around) who have been known to simply keep up with what they see as trends... including going to the extent of going to other schools, asking about what is taught and how, then stealing that in order to add to their offerings (they've done this with a number of things, none of which have anything to do with the Ninjutsu system they're supposed to be offering... such as kick-boxercise classes). It allows them to be a full time school (although, for a full time school, their hours are a little light on, to my mind....), but potentially at the expense of the system itself.

To your ideas, though, you might be a little surprised... To take them in order:

- Self Defence. Well, yeah, that's part of what I offer, but if that is all you're after, I'll send you to a boxing gym, or possibly an MMA gym firstly. Most female students I'd send to a BJJ school, as it deals with grabbing attacks, and that's the most likely way a woman is to be attacked. I'd also point out that those who are after the self defence aspect will get it with me, but they're going to get a range of other things as well... and if they're not interested in the other aspects, then the self defence probably won't be enough to keep them. So, in essence, that'd be a no.

- Exercise and Fitness. Nope. If that's your aim, go to a gym. While I could focus on that side of things, I expect students to cover that themselves outside of regular class, as it would simply take far too much time out of the class schedule, and there's often a hell of a lot I try to pack into a class as it is. That's another no.

- Fun. Well, honestly, I'd hope so... but that's less to do with the art, and more to do with the way it's presented and taught. So while it's a yes, it's not really something that I'd consider relevant to the curriculum, when all's said and done.

- Discipline. This is an interesting one. Again, that's something I'd expect the students to look to themselves... I only teach adults, so I kinda expect a fair amount of personal responsibility. Yes, there is a sense of discipline involved in the class structure itself, but the aim isn't to necessarily instill that in the student myself, more provide an avenue that they can use to explore that aspect for themselves. Because, really, if a person can't find a way to discipline themselves, then that's really their issue. So again, I'd call that a no.

- Self Confidence. This I look at the same as the previous discipline aspect. Yes, they can attain a greater sense of self confidence from the training (on a number of levels), but that's not necessarily inherent in the training itself. That said, there is external education, if you will, which deals with that side of things far more... but that's not something that is there because the students ask for it (most are completely unaware that such things are offered), but because it's more a part of the overall aim and offering of our organisation. So I'd edge towards a no again.

- Cultural Contexts. Well, it's a traditionally based martial art from a foreign land (Japan), so yeah, cultural contexts are a big part of it. But again, it's not that it's offered for students who ask for it, it's there as an inherent part of the art, and if you're not interested in it, well, this probably isn't the school for you. So, when it comes to catering to students, again, that's a no.

You then put forth three potential (hypothetical) students; one who is interested in Self Defence, one who is interested in fitness, and a teenager whose parents are wanting him to develop self confidence. Honestly, I don't know that I'd recommend any of the stay with me. The one whose after fitness will be told to join a gym, and if he wants a "fitness martial art" experience, to go to BJJ or MMA. The one whose after self defence will be told that, although we do indeed offer it, to my mind in a more complete and cutting edge form than anywhere else around us, it's part of a package deal... so if he isn't interested in things like learning traditional techniques, archaic weapons, some Japanese terminology etc, then we're probably not the school for them. And as for the kid whose parents want him to get confident? Firstly, I don't accept students under 18 as a general rule, but can make exceptions based on the maturity of the student down to about 16, so odds are they wouldn't make the age limit in the first place. But more importantly, assuming they are old enough (say, 16 or so), if it's the parents coming to me, I would tend to recommend they talk things over clearly with their kid, finding out what he's after... if he's just coming because his parents want him to, odds are I won't take him. I'd probably be suggesting public speaking courses, acting courses, amateur theatre and the like.

In short, the reason I'll take you on as a student is that you show interest in learning what I have to teach, not because you want something customised to your desires. Now, once they are my student, I'll certainly be teaching them based on what they need the most... but the aim is to teach them the system. And if they say they want to learn the art and get fit, then I'll take them on, and suggest they also join a gym. I'll help them figure out what types of exercises will help with what we do, but I'm not going to focus on fitness for them. Same with someone wanting self defence (and I have a number of seniors who are very "street" focused)... sure, I'll give you everything I can there, but that doesn't mean I'm going to let you slack off on the traditional side of things (and, to my mind, the traditional is the cornerstone, the basis, the bedrock of our street work, so by focusing on the traditional, it only improves the street training).

Oh, and I'm quite familiar with the histories of professional martial art teachers... but the thing to remember is the historical context that such teachers were able to do so in. Often it was in a situation where such skills were for immediate application and practicality, whether in Europe or Japan (or China... or anywhere, really). People would go to these teachers for particular skills that that teacher was known for, either for longer periods of study, or for a short term need (such as the specialist dueling instructors of 16th-17th Century Europe). These days martial arts are part of people's leisure time, using their leisure money. It's not a matter of immediate requirement, and if it is, then such desires don't enter into it. In fact, probably the closest to that these days would be MMA trainers, particularly those who specialise in one or another aspect, and are sought out by athletes who want to improve a particular aspect of their game in preparation for an upcoming bout and opponent. And in those situations, you don't dictate to the teacher what you're going to do, or what you're going to learn. You go there because of what they can offer, not in order to dictate what you want to get out of it (as in fitness, confidence etc). That's really the context of the old martial teachers... and it's just not found today for most people.

Usually by around 5th kyu in our system, we have a better understanding of the student and a rough guess at how far we can push them without causing serious offense to them or frustrating them needlessly. Basic kata work and principle building is hard enough without adding in the stress training. We discuss it and experiment with it earlier than 5th kyu, but success is not expected until that level is reached. Up and until that point uke attacks with very basic and obvious attacking methods in order to drill the principle and work on mechanics. Most of the more stress inducing practices are done in our "mastery class" a class designed specifically for the higher kyus and BBs.

If we did these things earlier I think it would frighten some of the more timid students and they'd leave thinking we were nothing but bullies.

Okay, cool. For us, it doesn't change dependent on experience, in anything but the intensity. My seniors and my brand new students get the exact same lesson... but the seniors are expected to push it a lot further.

 

[lklawson]

I'll clarify what I'm referring to. The main phrase I was answering was Jason's comment of: "In the business of Martial Arts the actual style and curriculum is really the smallest aspect of importance. If you feel that the style and or curriculum takes priority then you should honestly consider doing a different business and teaching on the side, unless you are independently wealthy." The way I read that is that the art itself takes a backseat to the student's wants and desires, which is what leads to McDojos and the like.

Fair enough. I won't contest this.

To your ideas, though, you might be a little surprised...

Fair enough. I understand your points and where you're coming from. You make a fair argument. I guess I just don't agree.

I'd say we could still share a beer but, frankly, I think bear tastes like Yak sweat. How 'bout burgers instead?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jasonbrinn]

Hi Kirk,

I'll clarify what I'm referring to. The main phrase I was answering was Jason's comment of: "In the business of Martial Arts the actual style and curriculum is really the smallest aspect of importance. If you feel that the style and or curriculum takes priority then you should honestly consider doing a different business and teaching on the side, unless you are independently wealthy." The way I read that is that the art itself takes a backseat to the student's wants and desires, which is what leads to McDojos and the like.

While I don't take personal offense from you Chris I do hate the term McDojo. It is used by people who either don't understand martial arts schools or don't understand businesses but certainly don't understand martial arts school businesses.

Let's look at the business side.

[I am going to put money into a commercial location to sell VCRs. My new VCR selling business is going to put out great products and with the sales I hope to spread joy and love and hopefully make enough money to pay the bills and feed my family. After a few months everything is going great except for one thing, nobody really buys VCRs anymore! Geez, I really believe in how saving precious moments and viewing them over and over on a TV is something spectacular. People just don't get it. Sure I know there are thos "DVD" thingees but VCRs were the first and in my opinion the best. I guess I will close my business much to the disappointment of my family, since I sunk our savings into this idea, and leave my passions for recording and sharing treasures to be displayed on the TV behind since others just don't seem to get it. If only I had been born a few hundred years earlier!]

Arts die everyday. It doesn't matter how preserved your art is if it dies with you. It is my opinion that any art is only as good as it betters the person who trains it. I believe that great teachers can change the ways their arts are taught without compromising the arts integrity.

The term McDojo was made popular by mostly MMA idiots that don't understand that a kid getting a black belt (while improving their overall fitness, self esteem and discipline to name a few) is not a loser cause he can't compete with some meathead in the cage. Women who don't care about becoming a kunoichi but would love to learn some kickboxing in an aerobic styled class from a black belt who understands and can teach both aspects are not losers either just because they aren't training with a gi.

I think Civil War reenactments are cool and all but they are not the best business model to go with. A love for the civil war and a paint shop owner can teach a lot about that passion while earning a living at the same time without crapping all over authenticity.

To put it simply - the PERSON, CLIENT, STUDENT is always, always, ALWAYS more important than anything else.


Jason Brinn

 

[lklawson]

While I don't take personal offense from you Chris I do hate the term McDojo. It is used by people who either don't understand martial arts schools or don't understand businesses but certainly don't understand martial arts school businesses.

Well, he IS running a Ninjitsu dojo, you know.

Arts die everyday.

No they don't. Not koryu/kobudo. In fact, the ones that survived the 19th century extinction have a loyal following. They're not going to die anytime soon. Now, if you're talking about the new Socketumei-budo by the freshly self-minted Soke Kirk, yeah, that might not survive.

It is my opinion that any art is only as good as it betters the person who trains it.

Well, that kinda depends on how you define "better" and "good" in this context. Koryu arts are all about preserving the old ways. Heck, I study several "Dead Weapons" arts (because they have little to no practical use in modern military fighting or civilian self defense) and the biggest reason that I study them is sort of a martial archeology. Bayonet with a 7 foot black powder rifle, for instance.

I believe that great teachers can change the ways their arts are taught without compromising the arts integrity.

Again, this requires defining of terms.

The term McDojo was made popular by mostly MMA idiots that don't understand that a kid getting a black belt (while improving their overall fitness, self esteem and discipline to name a few) is not a loser cause he can't compete with some meathead in the cage.

This is demonstrably false. The term McDojo, as far as I've been able to research, was coined by more-or-less Koryu practitioners who were pissed about self-promoted charlatans who were fleecing students while imparting little to no real martial skill. While the term has been embraced by the MMA movement, even within that movement it doesn't equate to being able to go toe to toe with a MMA competitor, but is all about actual fighting skill. In the MMA culture "traditional" arts such as Judo and Kyokushin are well respected specifically because they actually impart "fighting" skill in a fully resisting environment.

I think Civil War reenactments are cool and all but they are not the best business model to go with.

Do you know how much even an unassembled reproduction Springfield goes for? There's serious money in Civil War reenactment.

To put it simply - the PERSON, CLIENT, STUDENT is always, always, ALWAYS more important than anything else.

Frankly, I disagree with this too. Giving the customer what he needs/wants within the context of a quality product and a fair exchange for goods and services is more important. If your product is craptastic then you're not really serving the customer. If the product that you are offering doesn't really meet the customers needs, or you can't make it do so without compromising it, then you are doing a disservice to the customer.

You have to be able to maintain the integrity of your art while allowing it to serve the needs of the customer. I admit that this is hard to do.

I see your position and Chris's as polar opposite extremes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

While I don't take personal offense from you Chris I do hate the term McDojo. It is used by people who either don't understand martial arts schools or don't understand businesses but certainly don't understand martial arts school businesses.

Hi Jason.

Bluntly, I don't think you actually get what a McDojo is here... and yeah, I'm pretty aware of the realities of martial art schools, businesses, and the combination. And while a successful martial art school is something I'm quite fond of... but the idea here is that, if you change your curriculum just to retain students, giving over what you're teaching just to make it a successful business, that takes it towards McDojo-ism. But we'll deal with exactly what that is in a bit.

Let's look at the business side.

You do realize that's only one aspect, though, yeah? What makes it a negative is when it becomes the primary (sole) motivation, that's when what you're offering (the martial art) suffers.

[I am going to put money into a commercial location to sell VCRs. My new VCR selling business is going to put out great products and with the sales I hope to spread joy and love and hopefully make enough money to pay the bills and feed my family. After a few months everything is going great except for one thing, nobody really buys VCRs anymore! Geez, I really believe in how saving precious moments and viewing them over and over on a TV is something spectacular. People just don't get it. Sure I know there are thos "DVD" thingees but VCRs were the first and in my opinion the best. I guess I will close my business much to the disappointment of my family, since I sunk our savings into this idea, and leave my passions for recording and sharing treasures to be displayed on the TV behind since others just don't seem to get it. If only I had been born a few hundred years earlier!]

Well, that has to be the most convoluted, stretched, and irrelevant analogy I've seen. Honestly, Jason, it is nothing like that. In the case of the VCR, it's a technology that no longer has a use within the market... with martial arts, even the very old ones, that is simply not the case. So this entire analogy simply fails as a comparison.

Arts die everyday. It doesn't matter how preserved your art is if it dies with you. It is my opinion that any art is only as good as it betters the person who trains it. I believe that great teachers can change the ways their arts are taught without compromising the arts integrity.

And what on earth are you going on about here? "Arts die every day"? Really? Have you considered that something that leads to the death of various arts is exactly what you're talking about here, where the art is compromised in order to match the requests of the students, and make them feel good? But besides all of that, if the art is only as good as it betters those training it (not saying I agree with this, by the way), how does that factor in when you have to change the art in the first place to get people to train in it?

The term McDojo was made popular by mostly MMA idiots that don't understand that a kid getting a black belt (while improving their overall fitness, self esteem and discipline to name a few) is not a loser cause he can't compete with some meathead in the cage. Women who don't care about becoming a kunoichi but would love to learn some kickboxing in an aerobic styled class from a black belt who understands and can teach both aspects are not losers either just because they aren't training with a gi.

Right, McDojo definition.

The term is taken from the reference to McDonalds Restaurants... and as such refers to (typically large scale) schools where the value of the art is compromised, or neglected, in order to service and retain a large client base. They are typically identified by low quality training, large numbers of belts (to create income by frequent examination/testing fees), long-term contracts, and so on. The primary focus is on the business side of things, with the value of the art coming a very distant second. It's also not uncommon for such schools to follow trends, adding and removing from their curriculum as they go (say, adding a BJJ/groundfighting class and Zumba while removing a kickboxercise class as trends change), regardless of any credentials or experience in that area.

As a result, there is really no relevance to the above examples you gave... and no implication of anyone being a "loser" just because of the reasons you present.

I think Civil War reenactments are cool and all but they are not the best business model to go with. A love for the civil war and a paint shop owner can teach a lot about that passion while earning a living at the same time without crapping all over authenticity.

Seriously, what? What on earth do Civil War re-enactments have to do with anything here?

To put it simply - the PERSON, CLIENT, STUDENT is always, always, ALWAYS more important than anything else.

Jason Brinn

And that is where we have the major disagreement. I value what I offer more.

Oh, by the way, Kirk. Two things, my friend.

First, I know it sounds small, but it's "Ninjutsu", rather than "Ninjitsu"... the second is the providence of frauds and those who don't know any better, so we try to avoid connections to them. Second, I don't actually drink at all... so the burgers sound great!

 

[Chris Parker]

You know, just re-reading through my comments in this thread, I think part of my attitude might require some clarification, namely, the level of concern I have for what students (current and potential) might be after, and the reasons I approach things the way I do.

To begin with, some bluntness. It doesn't matter to me what a student is looking for. By that I mean that I don't change what I present based on their decisions/requests, or anything similar. I present what I teach, and if that suits a student, great, if not, then I don't recommend they stay.

Now, those who know me might think that this is mainly due to my Koryu influence, and might expect me to cite an article or two about such mentalities, but honestly (outside of my Koryu groups, which are separate to my Ninjutsu group), that's not really the case. Realistically, it's because the students simply don't know enough to dictate such things to me.

They don't know how each part fits in with the other parts. They don't know how the traditional work provides the ability to perform the modern work. They don't see what the lessons from some of the archaic weapons actually are. They don't know what type of fitness would be required for the particular art. They often don't even know what self defence really is in the first place. So why am I supposed to design a class around what they're asking for?

To take the fitness aspect as an example, as I already said, to focus on that would reduce the amount of time that could be dedicated to the actual training of the art... but another part of it is that the type of fitness required is different to just "being fit", in my art. It's more about flexibility (particularly of the hips, knees, and spine), combined with a degree of anaerobic fitness... but it's not designed to necessarily give you aerobic fitness, tone your physique, reduce weight, or anything of the kind. So why should I change the type of fitness training, or increase it, to give a benefit that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the art I'm teaching?

In short, if you are going to be studying in my schools, then you are going to be studying the information that I have to give. If you're not interested in the information I have to give, then don't study with me. But, as you (as a student) don't actually know what it is that I offer, or why I offer it the way I do, you're not in a position to dictate to me what I should give you. My job is not to follow your requests, it's to teach you the art you've signed up to learn. And that's an important distinction.

When you go to a martial arts teacher, or any teacher, you are going to them based on the idea that they can give you the skills they represent... often based (at least in part) on their experience level being far greater than yours. I've been training in my art for two decades now, I know it intimately. I know what's important and what isn't. I know what's there and what isn't, and more importantly, I know why and why not. The students, particularly the new, or potential ones, don't. As a result, they aren't in a position to request or dictate anything. The best that I can offer is to listen to their requests, then tell them if what I offer fits that. What I don't do is change what I teach because someone asks for something different, or a particular focus. In that regard, I really don't care what the students want to learn, I only care if they are wanting to learn what I'm offering.

 

[lklawson]

First, I know it sounds small, but it's "Ninjutsu", rather than "Ninjitsu"

Fair enough. I'll try to remember.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The best that I can offer is to listen to their requests, then tell them if what I offer fits that.

Maybe, just maybe, we're not so far apart as I'm afraid. If I may be allowed to grossly over-simplify... There are lots of people who buy a box fan from a department store. Some people buy it because they lack air conditioning in a given space and want the fan to keep them cool. Some people buy the box fan because they want to cool down hot pipes, parts, or pies, not themselves. Some people buy the box fan because they want to use it to keep dust from collecting on their work area. Some people buy the box fan because the want it to draw fresh air into a room or series of rooms while evacuating stale air or fumes. In all cases the exact same box fan is used, it is performing different tasks for different people, fulfilling different needs. The box fan does all of this without becoming something other than a box fan. The box fan is a tool.

In some ways, I view martial arts as a tool. One can use the exact same martial art as a tool to achieve different goals such as improved fitness, self defense, or just for fun. These can be achieved without compromising the art.

Back to my simplistic example, yes, I could disassemble the box fan, mount it in a wall, attach a hose, and direct it to my work area. But then the box fan wouldn't be mobile and I couldn't use it to circulate fresh air in other locations. In that sense, I would have limited the utility of the box fan. I would have compromised it as a generalized, flexible, tool by developing it specifically for one and only one given purpose.

In the same way, one could compromise an art by specializing it to the point that it loses utility for other purposes. I agree that this is how Kick Boxing turned into Boxercize. I'm not a fan of that process, although I've come to accept that it does happen. I agree that I don't want to participate in such a compromise of a martial art. However, I do firmly believe that it is possible to take a martial art and apply it in such a way that it will fulfill the individual needs of the student without compromising it. A student in need of more fitness might be directed to spend more time in those exercises of the art which tend to build fitness without neglecting the other elements of the art, and so on.

I think that about sums up my current position on it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Aiki Lee]

I am going to put money into a commercial location to sell VCRs. My new VCR selling business is going to put out great products and with the sales I hope to spread joy and love and hopefully make enough money to pay the bills and feed my family. After a few months everything is going great except for one thing, nobody really buys VCRs anymore! Geez, I really believe in how saving precious moments and viewing them over and over on a TV is something spectacular. People just don't get it. Sure I know there are thos "DVD" thingees but VCRs were the first and in my opinion the best. I guess I will close my business much to the disappointment of my family, since I sunk our savings into this idea, and leave my passions for recording and sharing treasures to be displayed on the TV behind since others just don't seem to get it.

I think I can actually turn this metaphor around to make a different argument. In this analogy, you mention having a hypothetical VCR business because you love having a means to allow people to record things and watch them on TV. Well DVDs do the exact same thing and you actually don't change anything important by switching from VCR to DVD. You aren't changing what you offer, just the way it's presented. What is being offered is a way to record and display those recordings, the technology has changed and that's it.

So I'm personally not averse to changing the "technology" of martial arts. That is, I'm not opposed to change how something is presented as long as the correct lessons are being taught. You can change how the art is presented without changing the art, but that's different from just doing whatever the new student wants.

 

[jasonbrinn]

i think i can actually turn this metaphor around to make a different argument. In this analogy, you mention having a hypothetical vcr business because you love having a means to allow people to record things and watch them on tv. Well dvds do the exact same thing and you actually don't change anything important by switching from vcr to dvd. You aren't changing what you offer, just the way it's presented. What is being offered is a way to record and display those recordings, the technology has changed and that's it.

So i'm personally not averse to changing the "technology" of martial arts. That is, i'm not opposed to change how something is presented as long as the correct lessons are being taught. You can change how the art is presented without changing the art, but that's different from just doing whatever the new student wants.

^this ^

This was/is my argument. In fact I am getting ready to release the FULL "white" -to- Black Belt material for my system in a way that is VERY different, however, does not compromise ANY of the material. The public release date will be Sept 28th, the 3 year anniversary of the system (oh, and just like the instruction the manual will be completely FREE too).

Jason Brinn

 

[Chris Parker]

Maybe, just maybe, we're not so far apart as I'm afraid. If I may be allowed to grossly over-simplify... There are lots of people who buy a box fan from a department store. Some people buy it because they lack air conditioning in a given space and want the fan to keep them cool. Some people buy the box fan because they want to cool down hot pipes, parts, or pies, not themselves. Some people buy the box fan because they want to use it to keep dust from collecting on their work area. Some people buy the box fan because the want it to draw fresh air into a room or series of rooms while evacuating stale air or fumes. In all cases the exact same box fan is used, it is performing different tasks for different people, fulfilling different needs. The box fan does all of this without becoming something other than a box fan. The box fan is a tool.

In some ways, I view martial arts as a tool. One can use the exact same martial art as a tool to achieve different goals such as improved fitness, self defense, or just for fun. These can be achieved without compromising the art.

Back to my simplistic example, yes, I could disassemble the box fan, mount it in a wall, attach a hose, and direct it to my work area. But then the box fan wouldn't be mobile and I couldn't use it to circulate fresh air in other locations. In that sense, I would have limited the utility of the box fan. I would have compromised it as a generalized, flexible, tool by developing it specifically for one and only one given purpose.

In the same way, one could compromise an art by specializing it to the point that it loses utility for other purposes. I agree that this is how Kick Boxing turned into Boxercize. I'm not a fan of that process, although I've come to accept that it does happen. I agree that I don't want to participate in such a compromise of a martial art. However, I do firmly believe that it is possible to take a martial art and apply it in such a way that it will fulfill the individual needs of the student without compromising it. A student in need of more fitness might be directed to spend more time in those exercises of the art which tend to build fitness without neglecting the other elements of the art, and so on.

I think that about sums up my current position on it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yeah, that's pretty close to my thoughts... personally, I'd liken it to a restaurant. You don't go to a Chinese restaurant and ask for pizza, or ask for a medium-rare steak in a vegetarian place.

I think I can actually turn this metaphor around to make a different argument. In this analogy, you mention having a hypothetical VCR business because you love having a means to allow people to record things and watch them on TV. Well DVDs do the exact same thing and you actually don't change anything important by switching from VCR to DVD. You aren't changing what you offer, just the way it's presented. What is being offered is a way to record and display those recordings, the technology has changed and that's it.

So I'm personally not averse to changing the "technology" of martial arts. That is, I'm not opposed to change how something is presented as long as the correct lessons are being taught. You can change how the art is presented without changing the art, but that's different from just doing whatever the new student wants.

^this ^

This was/is my argument. In fact I am getting ready to release the FULL "white" -to- Black Belt material for my system in a way that is VERY different, however, does not compromise ANY of the material. The public release date will be Sept 28th, the 3 year anniversary of the system (oh, and just like the instruction the manual will be completely FREE too).

Jason Brinn

How was that your argument, Jason? You said that my usage of the McDojo term meant I didn't understand "martial arts schools, businesses, (and certainly not) martial art businesses". You then posited that analogy of a VCR business as some kind of demonstration of "the business side", even though it was hardly an example of understanding businesses (more showing a lack of understanding within the example, really).

Additionally, the reason for changing the product being offered is completely different. Changing from VCR's to DVD's is about developments in technology as an overall market, in a way that martial arts simply don't have, so is an essential change. Changing a martial art, or martial art class because you want to keep students, and are therefore willing to change the classes to fit them. It's not a matter of holding onto the VCR concept, it's a matter of a company trying to make everything in order to get the most customers... and in every case like that, the company might have a few things they do well, but the majority is average at best, substandard at worst.

So no, that wasn't your argument... or at least, that's not the argument you presented. And I'm not going to get into what the release of your free material has to do with anything stated here either... I really don't see the relevance.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Chris you rarely seem to "get it" and well, I can't help you. That was my point whether you "got it" or not. Your ideas are different, and thats cool, but just because they are different doesn't mean they are right or even better for that matter.

I know about businesses, martial arts and martial arts businesses because I have done both for a very long time, been very successful at both and have gone on to coach others to great success in both. I never said you didn't know anything only that people that use that term generally don't - in your case I thought it was just a bad case of word selection as I feel you know mostly what you are talking about.

I don't wholesale disagree with you, except for the issue of which is the most important aspect of training - style or student. I favor the student.

The release of my material was in reference to how things can be changed in presentation and delivery method yet not compromise the material delivered nor lower the competency of the recipients. That will be more demonstrative when I release it Friday and make more sense to this debate which is why I vaguely referenced it.

DVDs and VCRs do the same thing essentially. A VCR company coud make the change over to DVDs without leaving its business model or customer base behind. Now if you want to make the analogy that the VCR is the style and not the business then you might have a small chance but even there improving your art as to improve your students is a plus in my book any day. And yes, I feel the practitioners of any art have both the right and ability to improve upon it - heck they have the responsibility to take it forward IMO.

@Himura - I took a look at your teachers website and business. It seems he really has some great programs and a good business model. Wjy not talk with him about opening an additional location under him and learning from his success and having him as a mentor as long as possible?

Jason Brinn

 

[Aiki Lee]

@Himura - I took a look at your teachers website and business. It seems he really has some great programs and a good business model. Wjy not talk with him about opening an additional location under him and learning from his success and having him as a mentor as long as possible?

Jason Brinn

That's what I'm doing essentially. Basically I will be operating a training club under the supervision of Mr. Eichenberg. I would not teach without his permission, and not if it compromises my own ability to train with him. I have no intention of running off to do my own thing and he has the final word in what I am allowed to teach to the group.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris you rarely seem to "get it" and well, I can't help you. That was my point whether you "got it" or not. Your ideas are different, and thats cool, but just because they are different doesn't mean they are right or even better for that matter.

You really have to be kidding here, Jason... I'm not the one that gets constantly questioned over the bizarre things they state. And, as I said, if that really was your point, you really need to work on how you make it, because the way you presented it was really the complete opposite (as Himura said when you agreed with him). Throughout this discussion you have been shown to not understand the term "McDojo", or any of the arguments presented, so I really don't get where you can make such a statement from. And it's really not anything to do with either of us having different ideas, it's to do with your applying a rather false and flawed analogy.

I know about businesses, martial arts and martial arts businesses because I have done both for a very long time, been very successful at both and have gone on to coach others to great success in both. I never said you didn't know anything only that people that use that term generally don't - in your case I thought it was just a bad case of word selection as I feel you know mostly what you are talking about.

Please. You picked up on my usage of the term "McDojo", continued by saying that it was used by people who didn't understand "martial arts, businesses, or martial arts businesses", then offered a (flawed) analogy of a VCR manufacturer to demonstrate customer-oriented ideas, mixed in with some bizarre (and so far unexplained) comments on Civil War re-enactment and inaccurate comments on where the term "McDojo" come from. So how was that not saying I didn't know anything about such matters?

But no, it wasn't a case of poor selection on my part. It was accurate. The fact that you're not seeming to understand what the term actually means in the first place. And frankly, Jason, I'm not convinced that you do know about martial arts, but hey, I'm only basing that on what you've posted...

I don't wholesale disagree with you, except for the issue of which is the most important aspect of training - style or student. I favor the student.

Being concerned about the students development is essential, but you need to be concerned in what their development is in first. Otherwise it loses all value. After all, where's the integrity in what you're teaching if you're willing to change it just based on the students (ill-informed) desires?

The release of my material was in reference to how things can be changed in presentation and delivery method yet not compromise the material delivered nor lower the competency of the recipients. That will be more demonstrative when I release it Friday and make more sense to this debate which is why I vaguely referenced it.

Uh.... what? Again, you might want to try making your points a little clearer, as that really didn't come across. Not to mention the fact that, as of now, there isn't any evidence other than you saying there will be a different delivery method without compromise... so it really doesn't support anything as of yet.

DVDs and VCRs do the same thing essentially. A VCR company coud make the change over to DVDs without leaving its business model or customer base behind. Now if you want to make the analogy that the VCR is the style and not the business then you might have a small chance but even there improving your art as to improve your students is a plus in my book any day. And yes, I feel the practitioners of any art have both the right and ability to improve upon it - heck they have the responsibility to take it forward IMO.

I hardly know where to start with this... I mean, I could point out that VCRs and DVDs don't do the same thing, if we want to get technical, but that's a little beside the point here. Probably the most important point is that this entire line of thinking is kinda opposite to reality (when it comes to martial arts and their development)... there's been no question of whether or not martial arts should, or do develop and change, the question is why they do. And if it's part of the development of the art, changing usages etc, then it's all well and good... but if it's because it's seeking to chase students and cash, that's where it all loses value and integrity.

@Himura - I took a look at your teachers website and business. It seems he really has some great programs and a good business model. Wjy not talk with him about opening an additional location under him and learning from his success and having him as a mentor as long as possible?

Jason Brinn

And here, I recommend you read the actual OP, Jason... as that's exactly what Himura is doing.