Second only to God?

[Touch Of Death]

I was on another Kenpo website and the subject came up that The best Krav guy could never have defeated Mr. Parker. Does every one feel this way? Have I entered a bizaro universe in which Ed Parkers skills can never be matched by any human being and therefore one should never study any other art? However if you do choose the golden path should you never expect to surpass Ed Parker's level because after all that would be impossible for mere mortals?

 

[Ender]

I think Superman might beat them all....nods

 

[rmcrobertson]

I assume you're referring to my post on KenpoNet, and I'm afraid you're distorting it. In the context of a argument which seemed to me to be slanting towards explaining why people in kenpo had no hope of standing up against "Krav maga," I wrote that a) KM had all the advantages and all the disadvantages of a system with a sharply-restricted vocabulary and set of concepts and principles, b) KM had been another flavor of the month last year, c) an interesting thought-experiment (and about as real as those, "Robocop vs. Predator," comix) would be to imagine Mr. Parker having to take on somebody really good in KM, d) there was a problem in the discussion of confusing fighting experience with the worth of a system, e) I tended to understand that there was a big gap between myself as an amateur and any genuine professional fighter that we would all do well to understand.

At no time did I write anything that so much as hinted that Mr. Parker was a god who could do no wrong, or that kenpo endowed one with godlike powers. I believe that anybody who goes through my posts on this or any other forum will have a hard time arguing that I ever would argue such obvious silliness.

I invite anybody to check the discussion out.

Incidentally, Superman would win only under a yellow sun. Under a red giant, I believe my greater knowledge of concepts and principles would prevail.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Perhaps you should send the Israelis one of your articulate letters that explain how Krav is just a flavor of the month. Their switching to Kenpo might just tip the scales during WWIII.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, I haven't seen the Israelis employing a lot of Krav Maga techniques in Palestine. I think they use jets, gunships, tanks and bulldozers and M-16s.

Second off, KM was indeed featured in "LA Magazine," TV pop shows, etc. last year. You'd have done better to point out that not only was kenpo Flava of the Month in its own time, but arguably Mr. Parker helped invent the whole idea of Martial Arts Flavaa of the Month.

And third off, you might want to try just showing me where I'm wrong. From what I know about myself, shouldn't be that hard.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Not to butt in, but I must say my piece on this subject.

First it is absolutely rediculous to compare the best of yester-year to the best of today. How many truely Professional Martial Arts Fighters were there in the late fifties and early sixties when Ed Parker would have been in his prime? --- "NONE"

Today you have hundereds of full-time professional fighers out there which have the time and resources to condition themselves far beyond the capabilities of anyone 40 and 50 years ago.

As for KM vs Kenpo, as a Kenpoist my opinion is understandably bias, however, I have attended a KM seminar, and conducted some research on it. In my opinion it is 85% marketing and 15% martial arts. As for being the "Official" combat system of the Isreali Army don't believe everything you read in a magazine add.

 

[arnisador]

Thread Moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Perhaps you should send the Israelis one of your articulate letters that explain how Krav is just a flavor of the month. Their switching to Kenpo might just tip the scales during WWIII.

Wow dude... that's a touch out of line.
Krav Maga being a flavor of the month is a fact, but not a fact that takes away from it's effectiveness.
Bruce Lee was (is past tense appropriate?) a fad; big time. But he really WAS phenominal!

I don't see why you'd be so offended by this. Just a cursory glance thumbing through the pages of the top four martial arts magazines over the past three years will show you what the fads have been, and Krav Maga has been one.
But perhaps it earned it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Incidentally, Superman would win only under a yellow sun. Under a red giant, I believe my greater knowledge of concepts and principles would prevail.

I'd win under a full moon
with a following sea
if the Pleadies and Uranus are in alignment
and pices rising
and Saturn in it's house...

and a full can of mace in my hand.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How can I can I argue with as bunny with a pancake on its head? Krav may have aggressive marketing; however, its not as if you show up to class and spend 85 percent of your time being indroctrinated with special terms and stories about how tough this or that old timer is or used to be. Wait! What style was I talking about again?

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
How can I can I argue with as bunny with a pancake on its head? Krav may have aggressive marketing; however, its not as if you show up to class and spend 85 percent of your time being indroctrinated with special terms and stories about how tough this or that old timer is or used to be. Wait! What style was I talking about again?

None can argue with the flap-jack bunny!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All shall fall prey to his wiles.

Now that that's said, neither those in Kenpo nor those in Krav Maga should take their arts or their arts masters TOOOOO seriously! Take thier instruction seriously? Sure. Take your own training or that of your students seriously? You must!
But it's not worth this argumentative banter.

Kenpo: an excellent martial art, not perfect; with many excellent, good, average, mediocre (sp?) and shabby practitioners within it.

Krav Maga: an excellent martial art, not perfect; with many excellent, good, average, mediocre (sp?) and shabby practitioners within it.

Other than this
just do your best!!!

Your Brother
John

And now for another silly pic

 

[John Bishop]

Actually, Krav Maga being the "Official Martial Art" of I.D.F. (Isreali Defense Forces) is only partially true. All I.D.F. members receive Krav Maga training in basic training, because it is very simplistic and can be learned somewhat quickly.
The specialized units of the I.D.F. train continuesly in "Hisardut", which is a more comprehensive martial art which contains elements of Krav Maga, Jujitsu, and Kyokushinkai Karate.

 

[KenpoDave]

I thought everybody knew that an art was only as good as those who practice and teach it.

 

[MJS]

While I am no expert on the art, I have attended a KM seminar, and have worked on some of the material with a friend who has trained with a KM group in NY. Here are a few things that I have found.

Pros-

1- Strictly a combat oriented art.

2- No katas

3- Definately an awesome cardio workout.

4- The tech. are simple and many of the same movements can be applied to the same type of attack.

5- Out of all of the gun defenses that I have seen, the KM impress me the most.

6- Not really any set movements. While there is a set movement to start the tech. once you get going, you're pretty much free to do what you want.

7- Material is pretty simple to remember. Due to the simplicity, if you didnt practice for 3 weeks, chances are, you'd probably have no trouble re-calling the materail.


Cons-

1- Not too impressed with the knife work. Some of what I've seen would probably get you seriously hurt.

2- While it is hyped up very much, especially by the CA guys, if you stop and think about it, they are not really doing anything different than anyone else that owns a school would do when it comes to advertising.


Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Pros--no katas," eh? I wrote it before and I'll write it again: martial arts like this work only for a) people who already have training; b) people who are big, strong and aggressive; c) people who like to hit first.

The flip side of "it's the man, not the art," (please note--not my sexist language) is this: don't get the man's success confused with the art's value.

I liked John Bishop's details, especially given that apparently there is some reason to think that present-day kenpo may represent a streamlined version of an earlier, broader (though not necessarily more-comprehensive) martial art.

Oh--yes--the question isn't, and for me never has been, which art is superior. The question is, whether or not "krav maga," fits in as a subset of contemporary kenpo.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson Oh--yes--the question isn't, and for me never has been, which art is superior. The question is, whether or not "krav maga," fits in as a subset of contemporary kenpo. [/B]

OH..
I didn't know that KM had anything to do with Kenpo really.
What's the relationship??
THanks
Your Brother
John

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Brother John
I didn't know that KM had anything to do with Kenpo really.
What's the relationship??

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2071

 

[John Bishop]

There is no relationship between Kenpo and Krav Maga. I wrote the first, or one of the first magazine articles on Krav Maga. This was for "Inside Kung Fu's, Martial Arts Legend's" June 1995 issue.
If I remember correctly the founder of Krav Maga Imi Lichtennfeld, had a background in judo, wrestling, and boxing.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, one way of understanding the relationship is this: krav maga, "looks like kenpo," because kenpo offers a general theory of martial arts, so that styles such as km are special solutions (and I mean this in the sense of "general," vs. "special," relativity) of the larger system.

In other words, krav maga may represent a perfectly-valid, but restricted, set of techniques--kenpo would be the general field from which styles such as km can be drawn.

This does not at all imply that Mr. Parker invented krav maga, any more than Darwin invented sharks.

And before anybody whomps it up, let me be clear about something else: this does not at all imply that I am capable of beating up everybody who studies km because, "I know kenpo." In the first place, kenpo and I have barely met; in the second, of course there are folks in every style there is fully capable of having the likes of me for lunch.

Let me put it another way: I suspect that Mr. Parker was quite capable of fully understanding anything and anybody he might've seen in krav maga, and I strongly suspect that the opposite is not even close to true.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by John Bishop
There is no relationship between Kenpo and Krav Maga. I wrote the first, or one of the first magazine articles on Krav Maga. This was for "Inside Kung Fu's, Martial Arts Legend's" June 1995 issue.
If I remember correctly the founder of Krav Maga Imi Lichtennfeld, had a background in judo, wrestling, and boxing.

http://www.kravmaga.com/Home/History/history.html

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde