Second Nature

[MJS]

Something that is an ingrained habit or skill. Tying your shoes, driving, brushing your teeth, etc., all things that we do everyday, with no thought. We get into our car, close the door, put on the seatbelt, put the key in, step on the break, etc. We don't think about it, we just do it.

Martial Arts skills should fall into this category as well. Doing a block countless times, should be second nature when we see a punch coming towards us. We train things so many times, we tend to not think about it, we just do it. So this brings me to my question: Could this be harmful to us at any point? If we're so used to doing something, could we possibly do the wrong thing at the wrong time?

I posted a clip in this section yesterday from the "Ultimate Fighter" show. It was 2 of the fighters have a backyard fight. One ended up pulling guard, and the top guy lifted him up, and started slamming him to the ground. Was the bottom guy doing the best move, or did he do what was second nature to him?

Now this doesn't have to apply strictly to grappling, but with any move that we do. If someone isn't used to doing a move in training, are they going to be thinking of doing it during an altercation? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to poke your fingers into someones eyes, but if that eye jab, groin kick, etc is not trained regularly, will it come natural?

Thoughts?:ultracool

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If you don't train it will not be ingrained!

To make something second nature or an instinctive response one
needs to train and seriously train. If you are looking to be
successful in a combative sport then you need to train with and
by their rules. The downfall of this is that those rules will be ingrained
and possibly may limit you if you attempt to use that combative
sport training in a violent encounter. If your goal is to survive
and keep your family safe from violent encounters then you need
to train with that in mind. Just my o2. for the moment.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If you repeat a technique a few thousand times it may "come out" without your thinking about it. Example: I find that if I go around the corner of a door and there is someone on the other side my hand comes in front of my chest with out my thinking

 

[kidswarrior]

If someone isn't used to doing a move in training, are they going to be thinking of doing it during an altercation? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to poke your fingers into someones eyes, but if that eye jab, groin kick, etc is not trained regularly, will it come natural?

NO! This is my problem with saying, Well, we all know how to_______ (e.g., eye gouge) even if we don't train it. My view is if we don't train it, when the adrenaline dumps and the highest part of our brain shuts down, our lower brain is going to do what comes naturally--what's been ingrained. We won't be thinking about what we could do, because the part of the brain that uses higher reasoning processes to do such thinking is out of service.

If you don't train it will not be ingrained!

I love it enough to steal..er..I mean, use it (with proper credit). Nice Brian.

 

[kaizasosei]

question.

how much time do you think you have spent sparing. ofcourse there are many different types of sparing and also there are real fights or very realistic or dangerous sparing.

so would be be some hours, days, a month..,months? years??
i wonder what is possible? i mean it is hard to know that but approximately to yourself try to count all the minutes or hours spent sparing and make an estimated guess..for me i think it is at least a week i think and maybe more??less??
the kind of sparing that i actually mean is really dangerous sparing where you are almost as aware as a real fight..that is the time to be measured but whatever
brandon lee said...how many times in your life will you see the full moon. it all seems so infinite and yet...
another factor which would be interesting to check would be how many people do you think you have spared with or had such contact that you could catogorize it as helpful for training??
is it 20, 50 100--300? -1000people

 

[Steel Tiger]

I think one has to see a distinction between an instinctive response and something that has become habit.

An instinctive response is exactly that. A response to a given stimulus, so there would be different responses to different circumstances.

A habit is something we do routinely, not necessarily to a given stimulus. It is unlikely to vary with different circumstances.

The backyard fighter who pulled guard did so out of habit, he was not able to respond to the situation or how it changed.

It is something we all have to be aware and careful of in our training.

 

[kidswarrior]

Martial Arts skills should fall into this category as well. Doing a block countless times, should be second nature when we see a punch coming towards us. We train things so many times, we tend to not think about it, we just do it. So this brings me to my question: Could this be harmful to us at any point? If we're so used to doing something, could we possibly do the wrong thing at the wrong time?

Thoughts?:ultracool

This is an important piece of your OP which I missed the first time, Mike. Very good question (have to stop and think about it ).

Think your premise is right on: we do instinctively that which we practice frequently. Therefore, not just practice, but very near perfect practice of a brutal fighting art is our best protection.

This is why I'm so hard on myself about constantly refining the material I teach. No matter what I was taught. Yeah, one or two of my teachers were fierce men, but I've known fiercer, and the latter never set foot in a formal MA setting. So, my concern is not on pleasing the teachers who were good, even really good, such as by doing the blocks you reference in the way they taught, or in response to the situation they taught.

Instead, what keeps me up nights is teaching and practicing only moves which will be effective--often even if not the ideal defense. The proof of the pudding would be whether the art as a whole would allow me to hold my own against some of the absolute beasts I've known. And I only use myself as an example because by virtue of being the instructor, I'm the test dummy for what gets taught. Also, I've taken beatings, come through some hair-raising experiences, etc., so have a decent BS detector.

So my answer is, I teach things that will give my guy the advantage whether it's offense or defense--3 moves and the aggressor's out. Gross motor skills (because fine motor shuts down at certain heart BPM, as Kane and Wilder point out); whole body fighting. As some of the kata bunkai lit stresses, any move should be able to end the fight. That's what I'm striving to teach. So, even the 'wrong' move should be able to incapacitate the opponent. Training anything else is potentiality disastrous.

End of rant. But I warned you: it made me think.

 

[Langenschwert]

Martial Arts skills should fall into this category as well. Doing a block countless times, should be second nature when we see a punch coming towards us. We train things so many times, we tend to not think about it, we just do it. So this brings me to my question: Could this be harmful to us at any point? If we're so used to doing something, could we possibly do the wrong thing at the wrong time?

It takes 50,000 repetitions to make an action "instinct", that is to say, burned into our muscle memory. That is when we can use it under high stress situations where tunnel vision and adrenaline dump come into play. The problem arises when we train those 50k reps as a response to a situation they don't apply to. You need to train those actions within the appropriate context, otherwise it's like using words of which you don't know the meaning.

So if you're bothering to do the 50k reps, then hopefully you're also training the whys and the whens of the technique. Othwise, you will find you're using your finely honed skills in an entirely inappropriate situation.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[thedan]

... an ingrained habit or skill. ... things that we do everyday, with no thought. We get into our car, close the door, put on the seatbelt, put the key in, step on the break, etc. We don't think about it, we just do it.

And, then, you drive, giving little thought to the mechanics of driving. You do think about routing, speed limits, possible problems. You make several conscious choices every minute, while unconsciously shifting, steering and braking. Your problem is that you are confusing two different functions- habits, like using a seat belt or choosing a specific defense, and skills that are unconsciously aplied because they are ingrained into synaptic memory.

You train techniques or scenarios in order to help select proper defenses for particular situations. You practice basics so that those defenses are done right! A block or strike has to go up quicker than the speed of thought, and it has to be well structured and accurate. The only way to get that is to practice, and practice correctly. Why do we do silly things like bring our open hand up by our ear, then drop an inward knife hand (shuto) strike? Why not just chop the jerk?

The answer is that we are building structure into that strike, and we are ingraining that structure into synaptic memory. Now when we shoot the strike from point of origin, that structure is still there. Same with blocks, kicks, stances and foot maneuvers- all our basics. Your mind is in "oh crap!" mode- "get something the hell in its' way!". But the block goes up just like you trained it, with structure and power, even if it didn't chamber first, because your body says "this is what a block should be."

Dan C

 

[Sensei Payne]

Sometimes, the wrong thing can happen..such as if someone sneaks up on you, or jumps out at you...etc etc...

For example, my instructor told me of a time when he went to a Haunted hourse around halloween time with some friends when he was about my age, and when someone jumped out at him and actually caught him off of his guard, he just reacted and kocked the guy out....Not really his fault, and I can't blame him...and this was over 20 years ago so his control has increased...

Myself, I have had that same problem...someone sneaking put on me...a friend of mine saw me listening to a CD at the store one day, and he just kinda ran into me there...I had no idea that it would be him...he came up behind me thinking it would be funny to scare me since I couldn't hear or see him...he grabbed me like he was gonna try and snatched me up and instantly, I took him into a twi-te...

Martial Artists really can't be held accountable for reacting, because if a MAist reacts then he/she feels like they are in danger and they must react, true Martial Artists don't go looking for fights, we train so that we won't have to....

Karate No Michi

 

[Em MacIntosh]

How many times have I been punched in the nose for doing a poorly timed gidan barai (low-outside block). I've paid a relatively small price for a high kick a couple of times (part of a combo I had to break myself of...quickly..). In junior high, when I was really practicing my bassai hardcore, I was in a school fight and broke my left index finger with a nukite (spearhand) to the throat. I even timed it right, hit a good spot. It hurt him but cost me more. He proceeded to pulverize some humbleness into me. Thanks Henry George (6'3" in gr. 9) for letting me live!

 

[kingkong89]

if you train hard enough the tech. will ingrain itself into your mind as a second nature. and if you train hard enough the tech. applied will not harm others.