Scoring punches under the WTF rules

[puunui]

The funny thing was that I was going to post the same thing last night. But it's been a while since I've competed (or coached anyone to compete) so I thought I'd look it up in the WTF rules and quote the article/passage. And guess what... It's now allowed.

http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/site/rules/file/Competition_Rules_(Tashkent_version_final_2010).pdf

Whereas the rules used to state* "Fist technique: Delivering techniques by using the front parts of the forefinger and middle finger of the tightly clenched fist", now Article 11 (page 19 of the link above) now describes permitted techniques as "Fist technique: Delivering a punch using the tightly clenched fist" with the explanatory note "In the original Korean terminology of techniques, the term “Pa-run-ju-mok” can be interpreted as a correctly clenched fist. Therefore, striking with the correctly clenched fist is permitted without consideration of the angle, trajectory, or fist placement of the strike".

The fist must be closed, but hammerfist or backfist are not just permitted, but scoring techniques under current WTF rules.

That said, IRs may have been told slightly differently so you may have more current knowledge (if you are an IR) but going by "the letter of the law", they are now valid.

* The old 2006 rules are available at http://www.britishtaekwondo.org.uk/usrdata/File/downloads/wtf_competition_rules_english.pdf

I started a new thread instead going further off topic.

What I was told was that backfist will not score. IRs are being instructed to specifically look for cover punch as the scoring punch in matches. The only other situation in which a punch will score is if the punch has tremendous power such that anyone can recognize that it was a scoring punch. This would include stuff like a jumping in punch or even a hook punch which causes the opponent to buckle from the shot.

But no backfist.

 

[terryl965]

OK this is what I have been told and have seen done, cover punch, any punches that stops their opponet in there tracks or any punch that puts there opponet on there knee's.

 

[Tony49]

So if he does a back fist and that puts him on his knees does it score.

On a separate note, I had a Kenpo student fight WTF rules and was mainly a puncher to the body (I had been out of the TKD sparring circuit for a while and didn't realize the rules had change so much). He ended up losing by one point because two of the three judges didn't score his punches only his kick scored. What was funny is we asked the ref and she said the punches had to be effective. So we asked the kid who received the punches and He stated he was having a hard time breathing. It was so bad that he had to bow out of the next match. He couldn't even continue. Since then, we have mainly gone to open tournaments as I re-learn the new rules and readjust everyone's fight style. So now, I am teach the TKD Game, Open Game and SD. I find the two games have benifits for SD.

By the way, we teach three arts at our school TKD, Hawaiian Kenpo, and Doce Pares Eskrima.

 

[andyjeffries]

What I was told was that backfist will not score.

So this brings up the obvious question - given that the rules have changed from a very clear definition of what a punch is and the striking part to score, why the rule change to allow a more open interpretation of a "fist strike" rather than a "punch"?

I assume this was a group discussion (surely the rules are discussed at a WTF GA meeting or something) - are the minutes from these meetings publicly available?

 

[puunui]

So this brings up the obvious question - given that the rules have changed from a very clear definition of what a punch is and the striking part to score, why the rule change to allow a more open interpretation of a "fist strike" rather than a "punch"?

Even though the english translation was changed, the rule interpretation was not. That's why it is important to have good seniors to explain these things, another example where relationships play a key part in Taekwondo. Basically what I was told was that a back fist was disfavored because they didn't want people jumping in and scoring with a backfist like in a open point karate tournament. I was told that the cover punch at least the down block middle punch has a strong historical and technical tie with Taekwondo, that it is contained in the poomsae repeatedly and that sort of thing. But the main reason was the open point argument I believe.

 

[Tony49]

Even though the english translation was changed, the rule interpretation was not. That's why it is important to have good seniors to explain these things, another example where relationships play a key part in Taekwondo. Basically what I was told was that a back fist was disfavored because they didn't want people jumping in and scoring with a backfist like in a open point karate tournament. I was told that the cover punch at least the down block middle punch has a strong historical and technical tie with Taekwondo, that it is contained in the poomsae repeatedly and that sort of thing. But the main reason was the open point argument I believe.

So what if you do spin hook but change it to a spin back hand to the body and knock your opponent down does it count or not.

 

[troubleenuf]

Common people. They are only going to score straight punches with the forefist and they are barely going to score them. Just because they changed a few words dosnt mean they are going to change anything. For YEARS they have virtually ignored punches they are not going to do anything major with them now.

 

[Tony49]

Common people. They are only going to score straight punches with the forefist and they are barely going to score them. Just because they changed a few words dosnt mean they are going to change anything. For YEARS they have virtually ignored punches they are not going to do anything major with them now.

I agree with you there, I was just wondering if some elite fighter practice a secret punching technique and unleashed at worlds what would happen. Most likely you are right it wouldn't score but I seen a few people take a punch to the stomach and not be able to continue after a ten count. That would be crazy...

 

[armortkd]

Michael Canada from Oregon who fought in the 80s thru the early 90s was probably the best puncher I've ever seen. He would buckle opponents, bend the hogu in, score points, and even get the refs to give standing 8-counts. A friend of mine fought him once, and he told me that Mike hit him so hard that he barely got up for the 8-count. Mark Lopez is a great puncher as well.

 

[Tony49]

Michael Canada from Oregon who fought in the 80s thru the early 90s was probably the best puncher I've ever seen. He would buckle opponents, bend the hogu in, score points, and even get the refs to give standing 8-counts. A friend of mine fought him once, and he told me that Mike hit him so hard that he barely got up for the 8-count. Mark Lopez is a great puncher as well.

Wow, I didn't realize Mark was a good puncher do you have any videos of that.

 

[wayneshin]

OK this is what I have been told and have seen done, cover punch, any punches that stops their opponet in there tracks or any punch that puts there opponet on there knee's.

Just wondering... is this a different standard to that which they apply to kicks... ie For a kick to score does it have to stop the opponent in their tracks or put them on their knees.

 

[puunui]

Just wondering... is this a different standard to that which they apply to kicks... ie For a kick to score does it have to stop the opponent in their tracks or put them on their knees.

no.

 

[puunui]

Michael Canada from Oregon who fought in the 80s thru the early 90s was probably the best puncher I've ever seen. He would buckle opponents, bend the hogu in, score points, and even get the refs to give standing 8-counts. A friend of mine fought him once, and he told me that Mike hit him so hard that he barely got up for the 8-count.

I want to say his name is Canda, as opposed to Canada.

 

[armortkd]

You'r right. It is Canda. Didn't realize, it was a slip.

 

[puunui]

You'r right. It is Canda. Didn't realize, it was a slip.

No worries, I think most people called him Canada.

 

[armortkd]

Til James Villasana came around 91-92, Mike drew the big/vocal crowds when he fought.