Sai breaking sword

[Grenadier]

What you say makes sense but there's some things that should be realized. For one thing, hands on training has its limitations too. For one thing you can't always go full speed or full force while training. For somebody to swing a katana full speed and for you to attempt to catch it with a sai you can't do in training, simply for safety reasons.

As a martial arts practitioner, you don't train weapons vs weapons going full speed, unless it's a very specifically rehearsed demonstration done by two highly qualified people. Even then, they're going to practice slowly.

Trying to train otherwise with a sword vs sai at a real speed is just plain stupid, since someone will get hurt.

It's not the same thing as, say, two fencers or kendo-ka going at each other, since their weapons have a lot more margin of safety built into them. Even then, they're not going to be stabbing at each other with the intent to maim or kill.

Again, I'll state this, that trying to go at it full speed with weapons in an unrehearsed manner is stupid, and doing so with garbage mechanics sets a new benchmark for stupidity.

Sometimes a good way to know what a weapon was used for is by researching history, which is often done through books provided that you've got a good source. For instance, the jitte, a weapon that's similar to the sai except it has only one hook as opposed to two was apparently used by Japanese police and was used to catch and immobilize sword blades.

Again, this is a rather short-sighted view for the exact same reason I mentioned above. There would be so much momentum from catching a swung sword blade, that it would drive the tines into your hand, quite possibly breaking your own bones. It's nothing more than simple physics.

The user would be far more productive trying to catch the arm or the clothes worn by the sword wielder.

My source for that claim is from the Martial Arts Encyclopedia by Larry Winderbaum although I wouldn't recommend trying to back that up by getting a jitte and having somebody swing at you full speed with a katana.

Winderbaum's assertions simply don't hold up to simple science.

Think of it this way... Why don't motorcycle police try to block the roads when there's a criminal trying to escape with a SUV? Quite simple... The physics aren't in the favor of the motorcycle policeman. Even if a TV show demonstrates some super-powered policeman harmlessly deflecting away the SUV, simple physics do take priority in real life.

I would encourage you to take some courses in elementary physics. When you see the factors involved when it comes to things such as kinetic energy, you may be surprised at how small variances in the variables can result in sizable consequences.


The final answer is this:

You don't use the sai to trap sword blades in the silly manner that was demonstrated by the video. Period.

 

[Chris Parker]

The place that I know of that teaches the Sai, Aikido and Aikijutsu are just some of the arts they teach. They also teach Shorin Ryu, Kobujutsu, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu, and Iaido.

I'd be interested in the website… mainly as -

Unless they have multiple teachers that teach individual styles I would question their legitimacy as well

This.

What stands out the most as questionable is the combination of Aikido, Aikijutsu, Iaijutsu, Iaido, Kenjutsu (really, for those, I'd want to see the actual systems they're claiming), and so on…

Jitte

I had heard the Jitte (Jutte) being used to catch a sword as well but I have also heard that, like the sai breaking a katana, was a myth

Not that Wiki is always a reliable source but this was there

A popular misconception is that the kagi is used to catch a sword. It could possibly be used for this purpose, but the kagi's proximity to the hand would make it rather dangerous. When faced with a swordsman, a more likely use for the kagi would be to capture and arrest the blade after blocking it with the boshin. The kagi 's more common use is to hook into clothing or parts of the body like the nose or mouth, or to push into joints or other weak points on the body. It also could be used to hook the thumb while holding the weapon backwards, to allow different techniques such as punches and blocks, very similarly to a sai. The jitte can also be used in much the same manner as other short sticks or batons, to strike large muscle groups and aid in joint manipulation

Not saying it is a fact, just saying it would constitute more research

For the record, no, that's not an entirely accurate comment on Wiki there… while "catching" a sword wasn't the primary tactic of the jutte, it was still a fairly standard one. The idea that it was dangerous due to the proximity to the hand, or that the kagi was too narrow don't actually make any sense, as it's precisely those principles that ensure it actually works. The whole "holding it backwards" thing was a real rarity… honestly, it sounds like this was written by a practitioner of one of the less-reputable (read: modern, Western, invented, not actually connected to genuine usage) systems… for the record…

When it comes to the usage of a jutte, the most common tactic is to strike with the boshin (the large, primary rod of the weapon), with the second most common being to catch the sword… the methods described in the Wiki quote… uh… far, far less so.

As a martial arts practitioner, you don't train weapons vs weapons going full speed, unless it's a very specifically rehearsed demonstration done by two highly qualified people. Even then, they're going to practice slowly.

Well, as a martial arts practitioner who does a range of weapon-centric systems, including sword and jutte, I'd like to point out that pretty much all training (in traditional, non-sports weaponry systems) is predetermined techniques, rather than anything "free-form"… and yeah, full speed is done. So is slow, but it has to be done at full speed as well.

Trying to train otherwise with a sword vs sai at a real speed is just plain stupid, since someone will get hurt.

Hmm… no, can't agree with that… again, though, it comes down to the training methodology. Of course, the biggest thing to remember when dealing with sai is that, like most Okinawan methodologies, the primary training method is solo kata… the argument that it's designed to deal with a sword is, at best, a guess or extrapolation from the solo movements (and not one I'm sold on, for the record).

It's not the same thing as, say, two fencers or kendo-ka going at each other, since their weapons have a lot more margin of safety built into them. Even then, they're not going to be stabbing at each other with the intent to maim or kill.

Again, this is looking at a free-response methodology… which is not the way the training is done in traditional weapons, or in Ryukyu Kobudo, in the main.

Again, I'll state this, that trying to go at it full speed with weapons in an unrehearsed manner is stupid, and doing so with garbage mechanics sets a new benchmark for stupidity.

With the caveat of "unrehearsed manner", agreed.

Again, this is a rather short-sighted view for the exact same reason I mentioned above. There would be so much momentum from catching a swung sword blade, that it would drive the tines into your hand, quite possibly breaking your own bones. It's nothing more than simple physics.

The user would be far more productive trying to catch the arm or the clothes worn by the sword wielder.

Er… no.

The primary method of "catching" the sword is after the weapon has completed it's action, however there are methods of catching it during the cut… which involves catching near the habaki (the base of the blade), before it's hit it's full power, by angling the boshin, guiding the blade down towards the kagi itself. That minimises the power of the sword's impact, taking away the physics issues you're talking about here.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'd be interested in the website… mainly as -

This is the website. NJ Aikikai and Budokan

 

[Mephisto]

As a martial arts practitioner, you don't train weapons vs weapons going full speed, unless it's a very specifically rehearsed demonstration done by two highly qualified people. Even then, they're going to practice slowly.

Trying to train otherwise with a sword vs sai at a real speed is just plain stupid, since someone will get hurt.

It's not the same thing as, say, two fencers or kendo-ka going at each other, since their weapons have a lot more margin of safety built into them. Even then, they're not going to be stabbing at each other with the intent to maim or kill.

Again, I'll state this, that trying to go at it full speed with weapons in an unrehearsed manner is stupid, and doing so with garbage mechanics sets a new benchmark for stupidity.



Again, this is a rather short-sighted view for the exact same reason I mentioned above. There would be so much momentum from catching a swung sword blade, that it would drive the tines into your hand, quite possibly breaking your own bones. It's nothing more than simple physics.

The user would be far more productive trying to catch the arm or the clothes worn by the sword wielder.



Winderbaum's assertions simply don't hold up to simple science.

Think of it this way... Why don't motorcycle police try to block the roads when there's a criminal trying to escape with a SUV? Quite simple... The physics aren't in the favor of the motorcycle policeman. Even if a TV show demonstrates some super-powered policeman harmlessly deflecting away the SUV, simple physics do take priority in real life.

I would encourage you to take some courses in elementary physics. When you see the factors involved when it comes to things such as kinetic energy, you may be surprised at how small variances in the variables can result in sizable consequences.


The final answer is this:

You don't use the sai to trap sword blades in the silly manner that was demonstrated by the video. Period.

I'm guessing you're coming from a Japanese weapons viewpoint. Coming from a filipino martial arts perspective weapons are certainly trained full speed and in a random manner. There are prearranged sequences and some systems rely on them more than others but there is a fair share of full speed play as well. This can be done with rattan weapons training blades and at a high level some use live blades, but not me personally, as my system focuses on the stick as an impact weapon. With an experienced instructor a relatively new student can perform near full speed against random attacks.

 

[Chris Parker]

This is the website. NJ Aikikai and Budokan

Cool, thanks for that. Hmm.. Conti… should have figured that. Not to put to fine a point on it, but his history is largely embellished, and includes some rather, uh, unfortunate associations (Tenshin Ryu Kenjutsu? Richard Wigginton? Hmm…). His connection with each of his arts is relatively small, and to a fairly low level… since then, he's basically just put together his own thing based on such entry understandings. The big talk about the documentation from Daito Ryu is really just the first level that everyone gets to… and his other systems are fairly similar.

 

[Spinedoc]

Cool, thanks for that. Hmm.. Conti… should have figured that. Not to put to fine a point on it, but his history is largely embellished, and includes some rather, uh, unfortunate associations (Tenshin Ryu Kenjutsu? Richard Wigginton? Hmm…). His connection with each of his arts is relatively small, and to a fairly low level… since then, he's basically just put together his own thing based on such entry understandings. The big talk about the documentation from Daito Ryu is really just the first level that everyone gets to… and his other systems are fairly similar.

I find it somewhat amusing that Conti names his establishment Aikikai, which would imply an association with Aikikai Aikido and Hombu, but he never studied Aikikai. That right there is a huge red flag to me.

FWIW, the dojo we train at has multiple martial arts. Most rent space from the owner. The owner has advanced belts in TKD and Hapkido, and teaches both of those. In addition, there is Judo, Kuobu Ryu Okinawan Karate/Kobudo, Aikido, and BJJ.

All arts are taught by separate masters, who rent space at the facility. Our dojo is actually a satellite dojo of the Twin Cities Aikido Center, a USAF affiliated center. We simply rent the mat space at this location.