Safety precautions while training live blade.

[Cruentus]

I ran into a guy who works at my gym yesterday. He had his hand in a nasty looking sling, and I could see stich marks all the way up his arm. I asked him what happened, and he told me that he cut himself with a knife. I guess he was holding a lime in his left hand, and he miscalculated how sharp the knife actually was, slipped, and cut himself diagnally from index finger to pinky. He severed all four tendons. the tendons crawled all the way up his arm, and they had to surgically re-attach what they could, and attach artificial tendons with what they couldn't. He will be in various different casts for the next 6 weeks or so, but the heal time on this injury is 2-2 1/2 years. And, that is hard years of continued physical therapy, and a second surgury where they will attempt to borrow tendon tissue from his foot to create new tendons for the hand.

Bottom line: one little slip with a sharp knife, and this dudes hand ain't EVER going to work right again.

This story gives me the willies. If one can do one careless thing in the kitchen and lose limb functionality forever, imagine what could happend in a training accident.

That said, I think training with live blades is a must for learning knife arts, and is a must if you plan to understand what a blade can do. Yet, training precautions MUST be taken into account as well, so that accidents will not happened.

So, for those of you who train live blade, what are the safety precautions that you take to ensure that you don't damage yourself or your partners?

PJMOD

 

[shesulsa]

I know one guy who wears knit kevlar sleeves and gloves when he practices knife familiarization (tossing it and catching it and whatnot). I was curious, also, what others do.

 

[dearnis.com]

The key thing is total focus. I imagine everybody in martial arts has sustained some type of injury training while distracted, fatigued, pre-occupied, etc. It would be nice of we could train without the real world intruding, but life isn't like that. That is why we have trainers.
That said, I prefer to do my live blade work as part of my solo training- in other words with on one else around. Lots of slow repetitions to build fluidity rather than pushing for speed too fast.
The other part of live blade training is to use your blades- I have read that the Gurkhas use the kukhri for almost everything, that is why they are so familiar with it. Use good knives in the kitchen; see and understand different cutting mechanics. Clean fish and game. Cut stuff.
Lastly, I do on occaision do live blade partner training. I discourage the practice, but hey, do as I say, not as I do. Keys there are a trusted partner who 1) can flow 2) has good control 3) will not panic.
Oh yeah, trauma kit nearby (should go w/o saying).

 

[Feisty Mouse]

GAH!!!!

GAAAAAAH!!!

Talk about the willies....

GAH! (shaking it off)

 

[OUMoose]

I will echo Chad here in saying that the live blade work I've done is solo and usually very slow and controlled. Even with that, though, I've had a few knicks and cuts. Nothing like the guy mentioned, but enough to make me think twice about continuing that day.

Though I will admit, after training with a knife and learning respect for a blade, I have an easier time with other activities involving blades (butchering, cutting carpet, etc). *shrug* then again, perhaps I'm just weird.

 

[Cruentus]

GAH!!!!

GAAAAAAH!!!

Talk about the willies....

GAH! (shaking it off)

Oh, I know. I did the same thing when the guy was telling me what he actually did to himself. And let me tell you, seeing the stitches all the way up his arm from the surgury did nothing to help the grossness of it all.

I have to say GAH! again now... *shudders*

 

[Zepp]

So, Tulisan, what safety precautions do you take when training with a live blade? (You got me curious.)

 

[Cruentus]

So, Tulisan, what safety precautions do you take when training with a live blade? (You got me curious.)

No problem sir. I was giving people some time to throw out their responses before I offered mine. Sometimes if I respond too soon, people either go "yea that makes sense" or they go "I don't want to waste my time argueing with this long-winded guy;" but either way, they don't post their opinions.

Anyways, my "live blade" precautions are fairly simple, common sense stuff. However, sometimes good sense isn't too common, especially with the ego driven world of the martial arts. So, safety is worth discussing.

Live Blade training:

First of all, I want to say that training with a live blade is impairative for learning knife work. Many people don't train live blade at all, and I think that this is detrimental to their knife skill. When your working with a trainer, you may be doing things that would be ineffecient. Doing live blade work and blade awareness prevents working your training blades in an ineffecient manner.

That said, ONLY do Live blade work for SOLO TRAINING. The live blade is not for partner work, and it is not for sparring**. That is why trainers were invented. There are a multitude of good trainers out there today that work enough like the real thing for partner work. Use them.

Now, I know that some people will (and most likely rather futilely) argue with me on the idea of only using the live blade for solo training. They'll say that their Silat master or their FMA master does live blade partner work, "with the scars to prove it!" so that means that it must be a good idea. Bullstuff. Here's a news flash for some of you, and please don't take this offensively. Just because a guy is Asian and older then you, that doesn't mean that he knows what the hell he is talking about. Furthermore, just because someone is a "master" at the martial arts, that doesn't mean that they know everything there is to know about life. That said, some people long ago in a place far far away may have trained live blade partner work, and they may be very good and reputable. Hell, I have done it myself, but at least I will admit that I was wrong, and that it isn't worth the risks. However, if your master jumped off a bridge, would you do it? Just because someone did something long ago far far away, that doesn't mean it is smart for you to imitate the behavior.

Man, this should all seem like common sense, but I have gotton into and witnessed so many frickin arguements on and off forums over this. I have even heard someone say something like this once, "I met this guy who was the most skilled blade master I have ever seen. He's old and from Indonesia and he showed me the scars up and down his arm from his live blade work. Hard way to train, man, but worth it if you want to get that good." Arrrrgh. So why's he so good, dude? Cause' he's asian, and he has scars? Oh I see. The people who advocate unsafe training are usually doing it to appease their own psychological need to be better then other people who train safely, so they will refuse to see a different way, despite what idiotic thing comes out of their mouth to justify it. And yes, these people are out there, and I won't be suprised if they find this thread.

Now, one might ask themselves, why in the world would someone not be on board with everyone else in the 21st century, and insist on training partner work with the live blade? Usually it is because of myths surrounding the idea.

Myth #1: The "old school" way of training partner work was with the live blade. This is a total bill of stale goods. Too bad this idea is not founded by history. Trainer blades in all cultures that have blade arts have been used for as long as we know of. We are talking hundreds of years. Filipino masters in the arts I do have often used the stick's and wooden daggers to immulate the blade for partner work. The Japanese always had wooden versians of their bladed weapons. Training weapons have always been used, and have always been available, as far as we know.

Now, even with training blades available, just like today, there were people in the past who trained live blade with a partner. Some of these people may have been pretty good. However, to say that this was the "old school" way of training, or that "only the true blade masters trained this way" is a false claim. Also, just because someone 50 or 100 years ago didn't have the tactical education that we have today (and trained a certian way because of it), that doesn't mean we should immulate these ineffeciencies.

Myth #2: Live blade partner work is more realistic then using a training blade. This is also B.S. Live blade partner work is actually LESS realistic then using a training blade. This is because you trade one reality for another.

When you have a training blade, your not concerned about cutting your training partner. So you can do your drills "live," you can spar "live," and you can challange your training partner and really make him work. You can train as hard and as realistically as possible with each other, without having to worry about cutting each other. When you train live blade, all of a sudden, you and your partner have to be extra careful not to cut each other. Your drills now become very gentle-like dead patterns, for fear that if one of you are too unpredictable, then one of you will be cut. Now, if you think that dead patterns are realistic, then you have another problem that is probably worth a different conversation all together. The point is, you trade one reality for another. You trade the reality of an unpredictable, resisting attacker, who is trying to cut you for the "reality" of a sharp object. This trade off makes your training less realistic instead of more.

Now, one may run into some clown who will try to say, "Oh no, we train live and real serious when we use live blades against each other." Just know that this is total B.S. too. If it were true, then they're injury rates and mortality rates would be high, and this is also called fighting not training. I have yet to see a case that fits this criteria.

Myth #3: You need to train live blade with a partner to develop 'blade awareness.' Also false. First of all, you develop any blade awareness you need through your live cutting drills and solo live blade training. Solo live blade work tells you how to cut, which is what you need. Second of all, the trainers they make now are realistic enough to tell you if you screwed up something or not on the other guys blade, and they tell you this without injuring you. This is all the blade awareness you need, and live blade training with a partner does nothing to add to this.

Myth #4: You need to do partner work with a live blade to learn how to deal with the fear and adrinaline of a real blade encounter. This is also false. When one is talking about this, one is talking about dealing with the "adrinaline dump" of a real fight. There are a lot of ways to train to deal with the adrinaline dump that have been addressed in modern tactical and reality based training circles, as well as in the competition martial arts circles. And I assure you, none of these involve the faux-reality of live blade partner work.

Now, if you are talking about "fear of the blade" in general, I find that doing careful and gentle live blade drills with a partner does very little to address this fear. At least, it does little to address this that your live blade cutting practice doesn't do. You live blade cutting practice informs you of the strengths and limits of your tool; and this knowledge is usually what disapates any "fear of the blade," beyond a good healthy fear of course.

When to do live blade training, and what precautions to take

Again, you save the live blade work for solo practice and for cutting drills. When you do cutting drills, you could use a variety of things depending on how big of mess you want to make; paper, cardboard, meat, tami mats, bundles of straw, etc. These are all very effective. Here are some safety measures, and things to be careful of.

1. Usually, keep the sharp parts pointing away from you (best at target). Yes, there are a lot of exceptions to this one.
2. Keep your knife clean, dry, and sharp.
3. Don't cut things that will break or chip your knife.
4. Be careful when drawing your knife, whether it is sheath or folder. Don't put any of your body parts in the way of the blade when drawing.
5. BE EXTRA CAREFUL WHEN CLOSING OR RESHEATHING YOUR BLADE!!! Wha? Yes, be extra careful when closing or resheathing your blade. Most people I know who have cut themselves while training have done so from putting the blade back rather then taking it our or actually cutting. I've seen people close knives on their hands, stab themselves in the legs while trying to close a folder there, slice themselves because they were "wiping the blade off" on a body part, Slice their hand when resheathing from holding the sheath too high, and stab themselves because they missed the sheath all together when resheathing. Most of these accidents happened because the person is trying to close or resheath too fast, or they simply aren't paying attention when they are putting the blade away. There is no tactical reason for having to resheath the blade quickly. You need to draw quickly; you can take your time when you resheath. Also, realize that when your closing or resheathing, this may be the one time that the blade is actually pointing towards your body; when you look at it like that, then you will better understand the need to be extra cautious here.
6. Make sure you have a tight grip. You don't want to slip up on the blade. You don't want to drop your blade. Start off slow and make sure that your grip is secure. If there is danger of slippage, wear a protective glove.
7. Eye protection is suggested, especially if what you are cutting might create debre.
8. I'll say this again, but start off slow, and work your way up to speed. This will allow you to catch mistakes that may cause injury.
9. Keep others clear of your blade. No one should be at arms length from you when you are cutting.

Anyways, that should cover most of the safety precautions that one should take when training live blade. There is just no good reason to not take these measures in my opinion.

PJMOD

** There are few exceptions to training live blade with a partner, and that is when one takes the proper safety measures. I know that some people out there will actually put on leather stab proof gloves that cover the forearms, fencing masks, and stab proof vests, and they will do some training that way. Although I think that doing so trades one reality for another as well, I am not against this when one is taking the correct safety measures. So, for you guys, I am not talking about you when I yell about not training live blade partner work; however, I also know that you guys are the minority.

 

[Zepp]

No problem sir. I was giving people some time to throw out their responses before I offered mine. Sometimes if I respond too soon, people either go "yea that makes sense" or they go "I don't want to waste my time argueing with this long-winded guy;" but either way, they don't post their opinions.

Yeah, well, I'm impatient. What can I say?

When I was learning Kali, the first day we did any knifework we did a drill that I can best describe as "shadow sparring." We each had an opponent who was about six feet away from us, and we kept that distance the whole time while we attempted to attack and parry as though it was real. The instructor told us that this was "just to get a feel" for how a knife fight goes. All of us newbies were just using popsicle sticks, but the two assistant instructors held live blades. Do you think that this drill is unsafe with real knives?

 

[Cruentus]

Yeah, well, I'm impatient. What can I say?

When I was learning Kali, the first day we did any knifework we did a drill that I can best describe as "shadow sparring." We each had an opponent who was about six feet away from us, and we kept that distance the whole time while we attempted to attack and parry as though it was real. The instructor told us that this was "just to get a feel" for how a knife fight goes. All of us newbies were just using popsicle sticks, but the two assistant instructors held live blades. Do you think that this drill is unsafe with real knives?

I'm not sure. Were they basically shadow boxing with a partner, or were they actually close enough to touch each other?

 

[GAB]

Hi Paul,

My son informed me he got some Machete's for Christmas, so we could practice. (not here yet) P O is always at fault...Right...

I said, what will we be doing with them, like I don't know...Right

He laughed, very loud, said, Felix and I used to practice and the sparks flew...

I have numerous dvds on Knife and Sticks...I am now looking for some mail gloves and arm guards, maybe body guard...The guy is really serious...

My wife did add that he is definetly your (my) son.

I will keep you posted...If I still have some digets, been working as a carpenter my whole adult life. Still have all of them, I plan on keeping them.

Maybe mail on top of regular protection????

Sounds interesting???

Regards, Gary

 

[Cruentus]

Hmmm...sounds like fun; what kind of Machete's are they?

Here is my advice...

You don't have to let safety take away all your fun, but with a few safety measures, you can have realistic training while reducing the risk of early retirement from carpentry.

First off, if your going to bang Machetes around, make sure that they ARE NOT stainless steel. Some sort of spring steel might be preferable. You don't need uber-sweet steel quality for banging and ruining them anyways, but you can't use stainless because stainless is too brittle and may shatter with too much steel to steel contact. A shattering blade could cause serious injury. Most real machetes are made with a steel for hard, destructive work, so you shouldn't run into this problem, but just be careful.

Next is eye protection, regardless of what kind of blade work your doing. Nuff said. Just remember the old saying, "It's all fun and games til' somebody losses an eye..."

Now, to the tools themselves. If they are not too expensive and for banging together, then I suggest grinding the edge down to dull the blade. If your going to be ruining them anyways (that is what banging them around will basically do) then a dulled edge should be fine.

If it is a really nice bolo or machete that you want to keep for awhile, then I don't recommend banging them around. As I said, you'll ruin the blade. I suggest maintaining a sharp edge on the ones that you want to keep for awhile, and save them for live cutting drills; NO partner work with these! You can get trainers, or you can make trainers out of wood or foam, or you can even get a cheaper machete that resembles the good ones enough, grind down the edge, and use that as your trainer (more on this later).

I highly recommend Ontario Knife Co. for your Machete's, whether funtional or for grinding down into a trainer. You can get just about whatever you need for around $20 plus shipping, and its made out of a 1095 Carbon Steel that should withstand abuse.

Site here:
http://www.ontarioknife.com/machetes.html

Retailer here (just to give you an idea on cost):
http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/subcat/82

And, since I am throwing sites out there, Ralph Martindale Co. has a fun site, because you can see different Machete's from around the world...
http://www.ralphmartindale.co.uk/ralphmartindale/index.html

Anyways, all that said, grinding down a machete for partner work does not make it 100% safe. You can still hurt yourself on a dulled blade, and bad. So here is some additional precautions:

For Fixed Drills: Fixed drills are easier to work with because you know where your partner is going. If you start off slow, then you can be pretty safe with this, especially with a dulled blade. Yet, slip ups and accidents can still happened. I recommend starting off with a wooden training impliment first, like a stick, and getting really good at CONTROLING the weapon. I am talking about spending months with this (but this will vary depending on training experience). Once control is established, then move to the dulled blade. Yet, even with the dulled blade, you should wear protective gloves. Leather work gloves might be fine, but there is a plethora of different types of gloves you can get, including gloves laces with steel:

http://www.probuy.net/dir/64.html

For "Live" Training (Live drills, semi-sparring, sparring): O.K., everything regarding the safety measures for fixed drills apply here. But, now your partner is not predictable. So, many safety measures must be taken. My suggestion is that you use foam, soft, or actionflex training tools for live training; as long as your doing your cutting drills, your live work will remain realistic. However, if one insists on using the dulled blades for this, then you really have to gear up with the safety equipment. We are talking gloves, forearm guards, vests, fencing masks, helmets, the whole 9 yards. I personally don't train this way, as I feel that the gear takes away from the realism more then the foam weapons do.

Now, one last, really important thing: How sharp is dull, and how sharp is 'live blade?'

I personally believe in extremes here. If you have a live blade, I say keep it extremely sharp. I can shave with most of my live blades. This is why I say don't do partner work with live blades, because I think of live blades as being extremely sharp. When working with a dulled blade, I mean extremely dull. I mean tip flattened, and edge so dull that you couldn't cut meat with it.

Why go by these extremes? There is less room for accident, that's why. If your live blades are really sharp, then you won't take for granted how sharp it is, and you will make sure that you play it safe. There is no, "I wonder how sharp this thing is...whoops!" stuff with really sharp blades. Also, your sharp blade will have less of a chance of slipping off what you are cutting, meaning less of a chance of slipping and cutting yourself. And an extreme is equally important with a dulled blade. Your dulled blades aren't only sorta dull where you accidently cut yourself on them...no your dulled blades are really dull.

So, anyways, have fun, train hard, but train safe.

Let us know how it goes, and how you decided to train with them...

:supcool:
PJMOD

 

[MA-Caver]

While I can understand the idea that goes behind "live blade" training, personally I think it's just stupid. I mean c'mon if you're gonna do that... I triple dog dare ya to do live GUN training. You're not going to do it ... why? Because you're NOT that stupid! So why is it any thought that a live knife isn't gonna be the same.
My knife training and experience teaches me that if I hit the guy in the right spot he's gonna DIE in less than three minutes.

Using rubber knives and rubber guns is the way to go. Rubber because hard plastic hurts and hard plastic knives can be just as dangerous.

I don't care how many HOURS of training and how skilled one is with a knife... I'm pretty good meself but I'm not going to train (with partner) with a real blade. A-C-C-I-D-E-N-T-S happen.

By myself, yes, I will train with a live blade because it's controlled and a lot safer unless I get cocky and stupid with it... but I'm not.

You just don't do it with a live blade anymore than you do it with a loaded gun.
Respectfully speaking :asian:

 

[JohnMarkPainter]

Yeah...everyone knows that you can't really learn Gun disarms without practicing with a loaded chambered weapon with the safety off

Seriously...slinging a live blade around with a training partner is just dumb.
It is just for bragging rights.

I practice with live blades if they are blades that I intend to CARRY.
Otherwise you are just being macho.
I have a Balisong that is RAZOR sharp and I only work that blade when I want to terrify my friends. (I shave my arm hair and then do some really EASY maneuvers...hey...I'm not CRAZY).