Roundhouse kicks

[skribs]

I come from a Taekwondo background, where we exclusively use a steep chamber in our roundhouse kicks. We're not allowed to kick below the waist, and our sport is based on points more than knockouts, so there isn't as much incentive to go with the bat-swing of a kick that Muay Thai is known for. However, in many of the Muay Thai videos I've watched, I've noticed that for head kicks and even sometimes for kicks on the body, Muay Thai and MMA fighters will go for the more "TKD" style of chambered kick; where for leg kicks and other times for kicks on the body, they go for the more "MT" style of kick.

My BJJ professor is talking to me about potentially opening a striking class (because of my experience as a TKD instructor). I do want to include both styles of roundhouse kick. But they are different enough I almost wonder if it would be better to use different names for them, or to just teach them as variants. I figured before trying to reinvent the wheel, why not see what Muay Thai guys use to differentiate these two styles of roundhouse kick? Either in the vocabulary used in the school, or in how you approach teaching both variants.

 

[Holmejr]

Thai head kicks

 

[skribs]

Thai head kicks

That is the type of video I was referring to, but watching it again doesn't really help me with my questions.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Every single strike has variants. You chose the correct one based on circumstances. I've never found a need to give them names.

 

[tkdroamer]

I come from a Taekwondo background, where we exclusively use a steep chamber in our roundhouse kicks. We're not allowed to kick below the waist, and our sport is based on points more than knockouts, so there isn't as much incentive to go with the bat-swing of a kick that Muay Thai is known for. However, in many of the Muay Thai videos I've watched, I've noticed that for head kicks and even sometimes for kicks on the body, Muay Thai and MMA fighters will go for the more "TKD" style of chambered kick; where for leg kicks and other times for kicks on the body, they go for the more "MT" style of kick.

My BJJ professor is talking to me about potentially opening a striking class (because of my experience as a TKD instructor). I do want to include both styles of roundhouse kick. But they are different enough I almost wonder if it would be better to use different names for them, or to just teach them as variants. I figured before trying to reinvent the wheel, why not see what Muay Thai guys use to differentiate these two styles of roundhouse kick? Either in the vocabulary used in the school, or in how you approach teaching both variants.

I would suggest as variants and not crossing style semantics. It could get confusing otherwise. So much of it involves the difference in shoulder, hip, and foot rotation. You could go as simple as 'low kick' = teach a MT style kick; 'high kick' = teach a TKD style kick.
If you watch elite and upper-level WT-TKD matches, you will see the MT style kick used, as least as far as the lower body is concerned. Hips open and standing foot not turned. An exception is what they do with the kicking arm. MT has the arm almost always swinging away from the kick, body open and in WT the arm is up and over, body closed.
In our sparring classes, we get into the 'cat and mouse'. Foot placement is very important unless you have very good flexibility.

FWIW, more traditional style of TKD teach a kick very similar to the MT kick.

 

[skribs]

I would suggest as variants and not crossing style semantics. It could get confusing otherwise. So much of it involves the difference in shoulder, hip, and foot rotation. You could go as simple as 'low kick' = teach a MT style kick; 'high kick' = teach a TKD style kick.
If you watch elite and upper-level WT-TKD matches, you will see the MT style kick used, as least as far as the lower body is concerned. Hips open and standing foot not turned. An exception is what they do with the kicking arm. MT has the arm almost always swinging away from the kick, body open and in WT the arm is up and over, body closed.
In our sparring classes, we get into the 'cat and mouse'. Foot placement is very important unless you have very good flexibility.

FWIW, more traditional style of TKD teach a kick very similar to the MT kick.

That is one thing I had considered, but "low kick" could mean a low roundhouse, or a side kick, front kick, or scoop/oblique kick. "High kick" could be any number of kicks, especially axe kick or hook kick.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is one thing I had considered, but "low kick" could mean a low roundhouse, or a side kick, front kick, or scoop/oblique kick. "High kick" could be any number of kicks, especially axe kick or hook kick.

Don't over think things. A roundhouse is a roundhouse regardless of the target. The details of chamber, pivot, angle, and striking surface are all just variables that vary depending on circumstance.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Well I don't know much about TKD other than a few intro forms and drills, but the key thing with a MT roundhouse is the stepping leg, not so much the kicking leg.

The kick can be any height. Let's assume it's mid-level, parallel to ground right leg roundhouse.

What makes the kick powerful is stepping out with the left and using that falling weight to throw "around the house'.

This is assuming an orthodox MT stance. If your a southpaw or even both, ambidextrous, you just switch feet. Alot of the basic MT footwork is all about this.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If you're teaching both, my personal recommendation would be to describe one as a TKD roundhouse, and the other as a MT roundhouse, just to help people organize in their heads. But it's not fully needed.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Always a winner

 

[Jared Traveler]

From what I can tell, after almost two years training Muay Thai in Thailand, is that pure Muay Thai does not use much variations in kicking. A body kick is performed and executed in a pretty standard way. And that body kick is done radically different than a TKD style kick.

Fighters may use variations, but I believe it is a hybrid system and not Muay Thai. Also a Thai low kick is performed radically different than a Thai body kick.

 

[isshinryuronin]

And that body kick is done radically different than a TKD style kick.... Also a Thai low kick is performed radically different than a Thai body kick.

Please elaborate so those of us without experience in TKD and MT can appreciate your point.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Please elaborate so those of us without experience in TKD and MT can appreciate your point.

I think explaining the finer details would take a bit of writing, but some key points. Regarding the Thai body kick, first, it starts from a completely different stance than TKD, which means coming up on the ball of your foot for a lot more body rotation(adding to the power). With both kicking and ground leg straight as boards(very different than the springing and chambering power I remember from TKD), head up high(not leaning back), thrown full force. Of course hitting with the shin. Always with a step off line to the outside first(to protect the head from head punches which is not a concern in TKD) with lots of hand rotation to get the hip movement to develop full power. Much more hip turn over and commitment than a TKD kick, and typically arching downward, to slide over your opponents shin block.

The low kick is a hop instead of a step, on a bent ground leg, instead of a straight leg. With your head dropping a lot more to get the kicking leg elevated enough to drop it down at an angle. With a goal of hitting at an angle where moment would naturally allow your leg to go back to your original stance, because of your compromised balance, which makes it difficult to control your balance if your head gets in front of your knee.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a lot more body rotation(adding to the power).

When you throw a MT right roundhouse kick, do you throw your left hand next to your right shoulder at the same time?

I find the left hand motion can be used to protect my face from punch. Also the left hand motion can add more kicking speed. The faster that I move left hand next to my right shoulder, the faster my right roundhouse kick can be delivered.

 

[Jared Traveler]

When you throw a MT right roundhouse kick, do you throw your left hand next to your right shoulder at the same time?

I find the left hand motion can be used to protect my face from punch. Also the left hand motion can add more kicking speed. The faster that I move left hand next to my right shoulder, the faster my right roundhouse kick can be delivered.

I'm assuming you are talking about a right kicking leg, where the right leg swings down and the left hand moves towards the right shoulder to protect the face?

I always thought Muay Thai kickers did this, but I have never been taught to do this on a kick. That may be stylistic to the gym. However I do use the arm as a bar in front of the face for protection for certain other tasks in Muay Thai.

 

[tkdroamer]

When you throw a MT right roundhouse kick, do you throw your left hand next to your right shoulder at the same time?

I find the left hand motion can be used to protect my face from punch. Also the left hand motion can add more kicking speed. The faster that I move left hand next to my right shoulder, the faster my right roundhouse kick can be delivered.

We are talking about a right foot kick? Not necessarily, and certainly not overtly. Think of that as giving away the move. It is better for the hand to move with the shoulder rotation. It is worth noting there are several variants of the roundhouse across TKD (and other) styles.
What you see many new people do is 'corkscrew' the kick, where their upper body goes one direction and the lower body goes the other, effectively cancelling each other out. Usually, their hands are all over the place trying to balance.
To the untrained eye, it can look like MT fighters do something similar. But the bit difference is foot and knee placement. They learn to get full rotation without turning their upper body too much, allowing them to stay in a more open stance. Your upper body relative to your standing leg is paramount.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I've seen hands in various positions in karate when roundhouse kicking. It seems to be an individual thing. My way of doing it is when starting out with a left lead (hand and leg) and doing a right kick, the hands naturally shift into a right lead as the right side becomes the lead side, weapons always pointing at the target. This allows instant follow up punch/block ability as the kicking leg comes down.

It doesn't make sense to me to let my hands ever get out of striking/guard position during kicking, even at the expense of sacrificing a bit of power. For me, speed and offensive hand position always take precedence over extra power.

 

[Gyakuto]

I come from a Taekwondo background, where we exclusively use a steep chamber in our roundhouse kicks. We're not allowed to kick below the waist, and our sport is based on points more than knockouts, so there isn't as much incentive to go with the bat-swing of a kick that Muay Thai is known for. However, in many of the Muay Thai videos I've watched, I've noticed that for head kicks and even sometimes for kicks on the body, Muay Thai and MMA fighters will go for the more "TKD" style of chambered kick; where for leg kicks and other times for kicks on the body, they go for the more "MT" style of kick.

My BJJ professor is talking to me about potentially opening a striking class (because of my experience as a TKD instructor). I do want to include both styles of roundhouse kick. But they are different enough I almost wonder if it would be better to use different names for them, or to just teach them as variants. I figured before trying to reinvent the wheel, why not see what Muay Thai guys use to differentiate these two styles of roundhouse kick? Either in the vocabulary used in the school, or in how you approach teaching both variants.

What do you mean steep chamber, skribs? I haven’t heard that term before.

 

[skribs]

What do you mean steep chamber, skribs? I haven’t heard that term before.

Notice how his knee is bent more than 90 degrees while chambered for the kick.

 

[Gyakuto]

Notice how his knee is bent more than 90 degrees while chambered for the kick.

Oh I see…his kick leg’s knee is very flexed.