Rohai Hyung Videos, Applications, and General Discussion

[Makalakumu]

Rohai means "vision of the white crane." It's applications are inspired by this animal...thus, watching a crane in action is very instructive. I recommend a roadtrip to Jackson County in Wisconsin in order to visit the Sandhill Crane Rookery.

TSD's Rohai is based off of the Matsumura Rohai. No one is really sure where Hwang Kee learned this form, but they are sure that he has changed it considerably from the original. Here are a couple of posts that describe these changes. Post One. Post Two. Post Three. Post Four.

One concept that is very important when discussing applications for this form is Evade and Strike.

There is alot to discuss regarding this hyung so please engage us with your comments.

upnorthkyosa

 

[IMP]

What belt do you learn this at?

Ian

 

[Makalakumu]

What belt do you learn this at?

Ian

This form is taught for students who are learning material for 3rd dan.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of my recent projects has been working out the applications of this form. At first, I was mystified by what I was doing. The movements were so stylized that they didn't seem to make sense anymore.

Then I had the epiphany...

Forms have three types of moves in them.

1. Techniques that are directly applicable.
2. Techniques that illustrate principle.
3. Tehcniques that are good for physical fitness and balance.

All three of these variations can be found in Rohai.

The following posts illustrate a superficial examination of the self defense techniques taught by this hyung. Each technique is presented in chronological order, according to the portion of the hyung it is coming from.

It is important to remember that certain moves repeat in hyung because they are important. They also repeat because they are trying to teach a specific response. More discussion regarding this will follow...

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the first batch of applications...

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the second batch...

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the last batch...

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

My translations of the characters for Rohai (also known as Lo Hai or No Peh) render it 'White Heron'. Never saw the word 'vision' mentioned in it.

For years I believed this form was 'crane'. Then I got a little more adept at martial arts. Here's the epiphany: this is form is more snake than crane. OK. Maybe that is a bit much. The first half is snake. The last half is crane.

I know...I'm going to get an earful about this...but there it its. All those sweeping motions with the open hands are not crane movements...they are snake movements. The hand form is the Snake Fist. Which now that I understand that....makes the movements make sense. They should be performed with a sinuous feeling. The later movements of the form we see sweeping arms and closed fist. And these are the crane movements.

The form most likely comes from the southern Shaolin tradition of snake and crane fist. These arts were combined into a single system that complimented one another. Some myths have it that the inspiration came from watching a snake and crane battle with each other. Others state it was the result of a marraige where a crane fist and snake fist master wed and combined their respective arts.

I'd have to say, this is one of my favorite forms. It is beautiful to demonstrate and to see.

The Emperor

 

[Chizikunbo]

Master Hancock, you really should write a general Tang Soo Do book!
I think it would be a hit among practicioners everywhere. You know and post alot of things that are not in the mainstream TSD knowledge....
Just a thought ;-)
--josh

 

[Makalakumu]

While working with this form, I had several breakthroughs in the way that I veiw hyung applications. Here are some of the highlights.

1. Stylized moves are abbreviations of certain techniques. Even though some of the mechanics of a technique may be missing, the main points of is really happening are still there. The first application is a good example. The form shows the hands going down and spreading and then meeting at eye level. The actual application moves a little different, but the main points are still shown.

2. Certain segments in the forms contain groups of basic techniques that can be strung together in numerous ways. For example, the one-legged jumping back arm spread technique is actually mashing together techniques and concepts. Applications 5, 7, and 9 demonstrate how each peice of this technique can be broken down and strung into a sequence.

3. The footwork of one technique and the handwork of another may be split so that the footwork is part of one application and the handwork is part of another. A good example of this is the sweep in application 3. This sweep is not part of application 4, even though they occupy the same sequence in the form.

4. Certain techniques in the form show what "back-up techniques". For example, if you try something and it doesn't work, these techniques what to do in response. An example of this is application 6. If you notice it is the same as application 5, but my uke pushes away when I go for the neck crank. The response of an immediate clearing move followed up by a flurry of punches.

5. Certain techniques in the form can be taken out of sequence. This is actually a difficult insight to grasp because there needs to be some reasoning. The temptation to pick and choose can render the sequence of a form meaningless if one is not careful about this. Here is an example of where it is appropriate...If you look at application 9 and look to the sequence in the form where it comes from, you'll notice that I dropped the clearing move and two punches. This brings us to a reverse neck crank that seemed non-sequitor before and now fits nicely following the knee to the solar plexus. Since we know that the clearing move followed by the double punch is a back-up technique, dropping it to get to the neck crank makes perfect sense.

All of these observations apply to any form that you do in this system and I think that taking a look at how this form is broken down will really help with breaking down the other forms.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is the Okinawan version of the TSD Rohai. I searched for a long time for this...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1506243624322689198&q=Kata+Rohai

Notice the similarities. Notice the differences.

 

[DavidCC]

While working with this form, I had several breakthroughs in the way that I veiw hyung applications. Here are some of the highlights.

1. Stylized moves are abbreviations of certain techniques...

This form is included in most Shaolin kempo schools, but I haven't reached that level yet. I think it is required for 2nd black here, maybe 3rd.

but I wanted to comment instead on your observations above. I have a friend who is much more advanced than I am, 20+ years of chinese internal arts. He told me basically these same things: applications can be abbreviated or stylized, they can be split up and included in the kata in halves or thirds, they might be shown backwards... he tells me that a rule of thumb is, the more lethal a technique, the more obscured it will be.

-D

 

[Makalakumu]

This form is included in most Shaolin kempo schools, but I haven't reached that level yet. I think it is required for 2nd black here, maybe 3rd.

but I wanted to comment instead on your observations above. I have a friend who is much more advanced than I am, 20+ years of chinese internal arts. He told me basically these same things: applications can be abbreviated or stylized, they can be split up and included in the kata in halves or thirds, they might be shown backwards... he tells me that a rule of thumb is, the more lethal a technique, the more obscured it will be.

-D

I think this may be true, but I am reluctant to go there completely. I think that if you start to look at the forms in such minute details, you may just be seeing what you want to see and you may be over thinking what is really there. Thus, you miss the exoteric by looking for the esoteric.

I currently have a student like this. He is always probing deeping, which is good, unless it causes you to miss the important simple things. Thus, when it comes to application, and "reading" form, I think it is always better to start simple and work to the complex.

That is my personal philosophy.

With that being said, there may be some truly profound and crazy stuff in Rohai and I may not have any idea about it right now. I'm okay with that. If I can understand and perform the things that I do know before moving onto the unknown, I'm doing what I think I need to do.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Simplicity is the best. It is because of simplicity that Karate became so deadly....and so well respected. Over and over again you hears stories of the martial artist that reduces action to the basic movements...efficiently stopping, stunning and ending the agression. Check out any of the legendary fighters and you will find a common thread in their success during matches.......simple movements that overcome the opponent quickly.

The Emperor

 

[DavidCC]

I think this may be true, but I am reluctant to go there completely. I think that if you start to look at the forms in such minute details, you may just be seeing what you want to see and you may be over thinking what is really there. Thus, you miss the exoteric by looking for the esoteric.

I currently have a student like this. He is always probing deeping, which is good, unless it causes you to miss the important simple things. Thus, when it comes to application, and "reading" form, I think it is always better to start simple and work to the complex.

That is my personal philosophy.

With that being said, there may be some truly profound and crazy stuff in Rohai and I may not have any idea about it right now. I'm okay with that. If I can understand and perform the things that I do know before moving onto the unknown, I'm doing what I think I need to do.

Wel, I should add: I asked him, 'with the techniques so well hidden, changed, re-arranged in the kata, how can I ever know that any application taken from a kata is "real" and not some figment of my imagination?' his answer: You need a teacher who knows. How very Chinese of him

I think the exercise of imagining applications based on movements from kata is interesting and can be valuable, but it is not necesarily the BEST way to learn from kata, basically due to the exact same concerns you just wrote about.

 

[IMP]

Just curious Mr. K, but which student? You don't have to answer.

Ian