Rivalries in martial arts

[Omar B]

Hey. So I was looking up stuff in Black Belt Magazine about John Natividad becasue for some strange reason for the past couple weeks I've been obsessed with Chuck Norris and his 60's-70's version of his Karate team.

Anyways, in the pages I saw this great article on rivalries within the martial arts. They cover things like "inter style," "intra-style," and "arguments outside styles by individuals or groups. I found it pretty interesting because as messed up as it is there are many such rivalries, some of us may even be in a style that was a result of a split because of a rivalry.

Article title: The Dark Side Of The Martial Arts, pg. 92
http://books.google.com/books?id=S9...t=firefox-a#v=twopage&q=john natividad&f=true

 

[suicide]

kenpo guys for some reason got a prob. with tkd guys ?

 

[Jenna]

Hey. So I was looking up stuff in Black Belt Magazine about John Natividad becasue for some strange reason for the past couple weeks I've been obsessed with Chuck Norris and his 60's-70's version of his Karate team.

Anyways, in the pages I saw this great article on rivalries within the martial arts. They cover things like "inter style," "intra-style," and "arguments outside styles by individuals or groups. I found it pretty interesting because as messed up as it is there are many such rivalries, some of us may even be in a style that was a result of a split because of a rivalry.

Article title: The Dark Side Of The Martial Arts, pg. 92
http://books.google.com/books?id=S9...t=firefox-a#v=twopage&q=john natividad&f=true

You know Omar I worry that a lot of these rivalrous relationships are mere front and pose. We know how boxers and plenty of the MMA pro guys will do the whole press-conference psyche-out/staredown thing - each of the rivals wanting to convey their greater toughness. I wonder in order for any breakaway system or subvariant to thrive must it prove itself as being tougher or of some greater martial benefit than its mother art?

I think that splits, factions and breakaway systems are not at all a bad thing and because they encourage new thinking - even within the arts of those of us who are "left behind" still we are seeing the breakaway and thinking.. hmm, I wonder if we can improve what we do also?

I think the only problem with both intra- and inter- style rivalry is that people do not just take it and run with it. I do not know why they then must set themselves a mission to seek and destroy all those still practicing the "old" way. I have no issue with friendly rivalry and but I would question the gratuitous Sensei John Creese monopolistic business models!!

That is a nice piece that you have picked up upon thank you.

On a side note Omar regarding your worrying Chuck Norris affliction haha.. I wonder how do you think his style [and that of the era] stands up to that of today? I have always admired Chuck. His system, his persona and his acting are all very honest I think. Raw yes, and but decent and noble and honest and that is rare I think. Sorry I do not mean to digress at all.. apologies.. Jenna x

 

[celtic_crippler]

kenpo guys for some reason got a prob. with tkd guys ?

I don't have a problem with them.

However, with any "style" there will be those that think theirs is the be-all end-all of all martial arts and everything else is crap. Ironically, those people will always be limited in their ability.

 

[terryl965]

I know for me it is inner peace except from those that know everything people. Like the ones on thse talk show that tell us how to be smart investor but they have there money someplace else. Wait this is about the Arts yea rivaries. Maybe it was because in the old films it was about towns against towns and fighters against fighter and my style is better vecause I can fly over houses and you cannot. Wait that is the movies, maybe it is because peole cannot let there own egos go for one single minute and be a human being and remember we cannot know everything. Yea thats it.....

 

[Omar B]

I think the whole rivalry thing is always hilarious, but as you pointed out Jenna, it does lead to new systems. Nobody's ever totally right when it comes to martial arts, it's such an individual thing. Sometimes personalities don't always mesh and you have to leave, it's understandable. It gets funny because it gets dragged out in the public eye, we have men and women who should be professional athletes, coaches, acting completely contrary to what they try to enforce in their students.

Besides, everybody loves a good Ali style trash talking.

As for the Chuck Norris thing. I love what he did back then. Some guys who I've talked to within various Japanese styles sometimes look down their noses and sneer at my calling what he does karate. I never got that, TSD clearly shares a great deal of DNA with the Japanese systems yet it's sometimes seen as something to be put aside. I've got my whole Japanese/Korean axe to grind but Chuck and his guys clearly showed that they do belong in the same arena ... though those dudes did also train with Fumio Demura to get more Japanese hand tech.

 

[suicide]

from what ive read in a way parker vs tracey

 

[Jenna]

I think the whole rivalry thing is always hilarious, but as you pointed out Jenna, it does lead to new systems. Nobody's ever totally right when it comes to martial arts, it's such an individual thing. Sometimes personalities don't always mesh and you have to leave, it's understandable. It gets funny because it gets dragged out in the public eye, we have men and women who should be professional athletes, coaches, acting completely contrary to what they try to enforce in their students.

Besides, everybody loves a good Ali style trash talking.

As for the Chuck Norris thing. I love what he did back then. Some guys who I've talked to within various Japanese styles sometimes look down their noses and sneer at my calling what he does karate. I never got that, TSD clearly shares a great deal of DNA with the Japanese systems yet it's sometimes seen as something to be put aside. I've got my whole Japanese/Korean axe to grind but Chuck and his guys clearly showed that they do belong in the same arena ... though those dudes did also train with Fumio Demura to get more Japanese hand tech.

You know Omar I think that is another point right there.. I think there is a great deal of snobbery in MA.. and celtic_crippler above alludes to a be-all of MA. I think it is utter arrogance for anybody to imagine their system is the be-all and then create conflict with anyone that may disagree. As I said, I have no issue with friendly rivalry, that is human nature I think though I wonder if perhaps fame / notoriety or even plain ol commerce has a role in generating rivalries that are NOT friendly, for there is more at stake and more to prove in these cases??

In any case, if everyone accepted that their art [or variant], while it is probably be the most suitable and best FOR THEM, would never be the best for everyone, then we would all be freer to practice as we practice without second guessing ourselves. Sorry that sounds a bit hippie haha.. I only mean that I do not like having to perpetually ask myself if there is a better art for me than the one I am doing. I would rather ask, can I practice my art any better

Oh and you can add my vote for Chuck.. proper old school MA yes sir Jenna x

 

[Omar B]

There's snobbery because people cannot for the life of them accept that they don't have the answer after committing years to a certain course. It's almost like religion (see how I tie in another thread).

 

[celtic_crippler]

from what ive read in a way parker vs tracey

Some have issues with the other...long story...and stupid.

SGM Parker wrote in his famous "Infinite Insights" series that one's mind should remain open, like a parachute.

He also demonstrated his belief in open lines of communications and sharing in training and philosophies in his establishment of the International Karate Championships (IKC) by inviting ALL styles to participate.

For this rason, it dumbfounds me that any kenpoist would alienate themselves from a potential learning experience!

Years ago, when I studied Ju-Jitsu, I had a good friend that attended class with me. There was a 16 year old kid that helped out the instructor. He had a black belt and had been studying since he was able to walk.

Because of his age, my friend decided not to work with him during class; he did not respect him.

However, I didn't have a problem with it and actually sought out his help!

Well... eventually me and my friend ended up facing each other in the fnals of a tournament.

After I had won, my friend asked how it was possible that I had learned more than he as we both attended the same classes and learned the same curriculum.

The answer was simple.

Through his arrogance and because of his pride he had cut himself off from a potential source of knowledge where I had not. So...I won.

Why? Because he limited himself and I did not. I did not care that this kid was almost half my age. It was obvious he possesed knowledge that I did not; therefore, it was only logical to seek his advice and training.

This is true of all arts. Regardless of style, there are those that can teach you something new. If you allow arrogance and pride to come between you and that experience...then it's only logical to assume that you will be lacking in skill when compared to another that is not so inhibited.