Rhino guard pressure test

[skribs]

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I agree that the hip throws, sweeps and sacrifice throws are readily available. But, the wrist locks will be next to impossible to get since the hands are together, supporting each other. The elbow locks look inviting... but again, since the hands are together, if there is even a slight bend in his elbows, the elbow locks will be very hard to get. Was there some other direction you were going?

One thing you learn in Hapkido is that if they have 2 arms grabbing you, you simply pick one arm and ignore the other. There will be slight changes in how you approach some techniques (specifically to break their grip), but overall they work pretty much the same. So you have several options:

1. Pick an arm, go for a V-lock, and pivot away from the arm.
2. Pick an arm, go from the outside. If you can get the elbow lock take it, if not switch to a Figure-4.
3. Pick an arm, put your bicep under their elbow, and pull down on their hand with your other hand. If they keep the curl, switch to a sweep.

This is basically the same concept as any 2-hand grab or choke, just without actually grabbing or choking you, and we drill these every class in Hapkido.

 

[Mitlov]

Well maybe, and maybe not. There are all kinds of things that work quite well, that are not found in a combat sport venue. Not everything has a place in every venue. Some things are not appropriate in a particular venue, or they don’t have a need for it because they use other things that also work.

I could see this rhino guard working in some circumstances, and not in others. Like everything, it depends. Nothing is perfect for everything, nothing works all the time.

Whether or not something is being used in a combat sports venue is hardly the yardstick to measure whether it works well.

Not everything can be perfectly replicated in competitive sparring, true. But when (1) this starts with two unarmed people facing each other outside of striking range, and (2) involves one person trying to get to the clinch without being hit on the way in, a commonplace goal in both Sanda and MMA... Then, in that context, the fact that it's not used at all in either sport is somewhat significant in my mind.

 

[wab25]

One thing you learn in Hapkido is that if they have 2 arms grabbing you, you simply pick one arm and ignore the other.

Ok, so you are countering once he has grabbed you. But, then everything you are talking about doing, applies to once they have entered and grabbed you with two hands. It would not matter if he used the rhino guard, the zombie hands, or some other method to initiate a two handed clinch / grab. (I know you have a different definition of clinch in TKD)

I think you would find that trying to apply any of those techniques to his rhino guard (his fist held in his other hand, both extended at your face), would be next to impossible, due to the support of the other arm. You would have to break that rhino grip first, in order to pick one arm. But, if I understand you, once he breaks his own guard to initiate the clinch, is where you would go for wrist / arm / shoulder / v locks. If that is the case, it would not matter what he used to close distance, so long as his hands are separate when they grab you.

 

[skribs]

Ok, so you are countering once he has grabbed you. But, then everything you are talking about doing, applies to once they have entered and grabbed you with two hands. It would not matter if he used the rhino guard, the zombie hands, or some other method to initiate a two handed clinch / grab. (I know you have a different definition of clinch in TKD)

I think you would find that trying to apply any of those techniques to his rhino guard (his fist held in his other hand, both extended at your face), would be next to impossible, due to the support of the other arm. You would have to break that rhino grip first, in order to pick one arm. But, if I understand you, once he breaks his own guard to initiate the clinch, is where you would go for wrist / arm / shoulder / v locks. If that is the case, it would not matter what he used to close distance, so long as his hands are separate when they grab you.

No, I am making the comparison to those grab defense techniques.

The support of the other arm is irrelevant to most of these. They would pull the arm away from the other, unless he is going in with his hands actually grabbing each other, they go in the opposite direction of the support, or they bypass the arms entirely.

 

[wab25]

In other threads he has stated that the rhino guard is where you put both hands into a giant fist. He has also compared pistol shooting stances to being exactly like a rhino guard. In this case, I am taking the rhino guard to be: make a fist with one hand, and wrap the other hand around it, to make it a giant fist, composed of both hands, like a shooting stance. In other words, I took his description to mean the hands were grabbing each other. (or one grabbing the other) If they are connected to each other in this fashion, breaking one from the other will not be easy.

The other thing that gets added to this, is that applying these wrist locks to guys who train their wrists is quite different than applying these locks to guys in your Hapkido or Danzan Ryu class. Find a Shotokan guy, someone trains to punch very hard, without wrist wraps or find a good Judo or BJJ guy who have massive grip strength and try to apply your wrist locks. People who have these very powerful wrists change the game drastically, with regard to these locks. The first few times to try these locks on guys with this kind of wrist strength, it will feel like you are trying to z-lock a baseball bat (while he hits you with another baseball bat, or grabs your gi and chokes you out... depending on his training) Now, don't get me wrong, these will work on those people, but... you will have to either change your definition of "work" or seriously work on how you set it up... or both. From the type of training I have seen from the OPs other videos, I am putting a Chinese wrestler in the camp of having very strong wrists from both angles... a grapplers grip training and a punchers training to not bend the wrist when delivering a ton of force. Now, add the other arm in there for support, and those locks will get very hard to accomplish. Even if they are not connected to start with (my assumption about his rhino guard could be wrong), as soon as you try to separate the arms, it will be very easy for him to grab the other arm and connect them since they are so close.

I think this guard is actually quite good at protecting the wrists, elbows and shoulders from being locked. However, it leave massive holes for everything else: Punching from angles, kicking, sweeping, hip throws, sacrifice throws... heck I think a level change to double leg would be amazing considering how far forward he carries his weight in the video.

 

[Mitlov]

If the hands are holding each other in a pistol-style grip, how is the person in the rhino guard going to be able to effectively grab and clinch their opponent?

 

[geezer]

John --your Rhino guard seems to share some of the "wedging" strategy of a Wing Chun guard, but with greater strength by virtue of the hands being clenched to mutually support each other, ...and with significantly decreased striking ability for the same reason, that the hands are joined and extended. Hard to generate striking power from that position.

As far as "pressure testing" goes, I suppose this is a start. But I'd prefer to see it work against a variety of approaches. A good infighter who changes levels might be the next test. Somebody who drops under, or who sidesteps those arms while pressing forward.

The way the arms are joined is strong but also creates vulnerabilities.In addition to the greatly reduced ability to hit with much more than a push, it puts both arms in the same place which can make them easier to get around. And, if the hands are locked together, a hard pak sau or a lateral check to one will knock both aside allowing entry.

Of course, none of this can work without forward intent. As long as you are testing this against someone who habitually back-pedals, you will continue to get similar results, which are, IMO, largely "false positives". I would suggest recruiting a more varied group of opponents in the future and get back to us.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like the concept of rhino guard (I use a similar concept in some of what I teach), but I'm unconvinced by this video. I keep thinking I see clear opportunities to step off-line and come inside the guard (uppercut) or over it, as well as opportunities to drop some weight on top of it to off-balance the proponent. I'd like to see these guys trying those tactics to see how the rhino guard handles it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not everything can be perfectly replicated in competitive sparring, true. But when (1) this starts with two unarmed people facing each other outside of striking range, and (2) involves one person trying to get to the clinch without being hit on the way in, a commonplace goal in both Sanda and MMA... Then, in that context, the fact that it's not used at all in either sport is somewhat significant in my mind.

It is not significant, in my mind.

It may be that his rhino guard isn’t terribly reliable. But i don’t make that judgment based on whether or not it is used in a competitive venue..

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess it makes sense for that specific purpose. That doesn't appear to be how it was used (for the most part) in this practical display.



I was with you up until the last sentence. Some strategies haven't been identified or widely publicized yet.



On attacking the hand. I was mainly looking at this from a TKD perspective last night. But this morning I was thinking about it from the Hapkido perspective. If someone wants to give me their hands and keep the rest of their body away, an experienced Hapkidoist would have a field day.

I used to spar with a guy that like to put his arms like this (habit from the previous system he trained).

I would make a fist like this and would hammer that middle knuckle down into the top of hand. It took about 3 or 4 well placed soft taps for the pain to soak in. Then when he moved his hand I would toe kick him right on the triceps (that took about 2 because of how relax it was). In a fight my goal would be to cause a snapping motion in the where the elbow hyper extends. If that doesn't happen then at least I damage the muscle. But in training I would do it as a reminder to them "If you give it to me, I will take it." I'll have to post the video of that sparring session one day.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The rhino guard has not been tested in the kicking environment yet. It will be tested in the next 3 months.

After more thinking, the rhino guard will only be tested against punching. It will not be tested against kicking - it gets into leg catching skill.

It will not be tested against locking/throwing - the main purpose is to change a striking game into a wrestling game. If your opponent wants to play the wrestling game, you will love to play with him.​

 

[skribs]

In other threads he has stated that the rhino guard is where you put both hands into a giant fist. He has also compared pistol shooting stances to being exactly like a rhino guard. In this case, I am taking the rhino guard to be: make a fist with one hand, and wrap the other hand around it, to make it a giant fist, composed of both hands, like a shooting stance. In other words, I took his description to mean the hands were grabbing each other. (or one grabbing the other) If they are connected to each other in this fashion, breaking one from the other will not be easy.

The other thing that gets added to this, is that applying these wrist locks to guys who train their wrists is quite different than applying these locks to guys in your Hapkido or Danzan Ryu class. Find a Shotokan guy, someone trains to punch very hard, without wrist wraps or find a good Judo or BJJ guy who have massive grip strength and try to apply your wrist locks. People who have these very powerful wrists change the game drastically, with regard to these locks. The first few times to try these locks on guys with this kind of wrist strength, it will feel like you are trying to z-lock a baseball bat (while he hits you with another baseball bat, or grabs your gi and chokes you out... depending on his training) Now, don't get me wrong, these will work on those people, but... you will have to either change your definition of "work" or seriously work on how you set it up... or both. From the type of training I have seen from the OPs other videos, I am putting a Chinese wrestler in the camp of having very strong wrists from both angles... a grapplers grip training and a punchers training to not bend the wrist when delivering a ton of force. Now, add the other arm in there for support, and those locks will get very hard to accomplish. Even if they are not connected to start with (my assumption about his rhino guard could be wrong), as soon as you try to separate the arms, it will be very easy for him to grab the other arm and connect them since they are so close.

I think this guard is actually quite good at protecting the wrists, elbows and shoulders from being locked. However, it leave massive holes for everything else: Punching from angles, kicking, sweeping, hip throws, sacrifice throws... heck I think a level change to double leg would be amazing considering how far forward he carries his weight in the video.

My comments are relating to this video, in which a fist is not made.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If the hands are holding each other in a pistol-style grip, how is the person in the rhino guard going to be able to effectively grab and clinch their opponent?

Your giant drill head will be separated into 2 parts after you can drill a hole through your opponent's guard.

 

[oftheherd1]

If my son was fighting someone using the rhino guard and I would advise him to:

-soften him up with some hard side kicks then as he lowers the guard to help defend the side kick....feint the side kick and come over the top with punches

-parry the guard and move off center while throwing reverse punch to body followed with hook to the head and roundhouse kick to body (preferably the liver)

-move off center while clearing the guard with one hand and punching under or over the guard with the other hand.


Just something for you to think and test.

Agree on the kicks, but I think the OP was trying to show something about the block without taking that into consideration. But I think like you that you can't afford to do that without letting us know. Same with not being prepared for the parry to either side.

Your third point also brings up thoughts of grabbing the near hand/wrist and grappling the person to the ground, when the hands aren't locked. But kicks to the legs, thighs or knees would make the opponent keep his distance and remove the usefulness of the leg so disabled.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

After more thinking, the rhino guard will only be tested against punching. It will not be tested against kicking - it gets into leg catching skill.

It will not be tested against locking/throwing - the main purpose is to change a striking game into a wrestling game. If your opponent wants to play the wrestling game, you will love to play with him.​

This post suggests to me that the rhino guard is meant to be transitory - you use it in a moment to force that transition. I think it has some strengths there against certain fighting styles. I'd still want to see how it works if the response to it is to grapple. How does the transition work when your opponent isn't trying to stick to a striking game (which you may not know until you use rhino guard). I think it has some specific weaknesses that will be exposed under this kind of testing, and that will give you a chance to see how to mitigate those weaknesses.

The same is true with kicking. If your opponent is a decent kicker, they are likely to use some of those kicks when you switch to rhino guard to make that transition. You want to know what weaknesses are there and how to mitigate them.

In both cases, it's likely not going to be a question of "how to respond to these things with rhino guard", but "how to handle the transition from rhino guard to the response to these things".

And I'm still curious to learn how you minimize the risk of someone changing the angles while staying in a hand-striking mode (stepping off-line, angling out, or changing levels). I expect some of the responses would be just transitioning in and out of the rhino guard to flow with the changes.

 

[Mitlov]

After more thinking, the rhino guard will only be tested against punching. It will not be tested against kicking - it gets into leg catching skill.

It will not be tested against locking/throwing - the main purpose is to change a striking game into a wrestling game. If your opponent wants to play the wrestling game, you will love to play with him.​

In the time period after you have formed a "rhino" but before you have successfully clinched, why would you not include kicks or grappling as potential responses to the rhino guard? Those are likely responses of an opponent to this. It seems to me to be a key part of accurately pressure testing.

Will you pressure test with an opponent who moves off the line and uses circular strikes (hook punch, ridgehand, etc)? Again, seems to me that this would be a key part of pressure testing this strategy, instead of just having someone backpedal with straight punches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Will you pressure test with an opponent who moves off the line and uses circular strikes (hook punch, ridgehand, etc)? Again, seems to me that this would be a key part of pressure testing this strategy, instead of just having someone backpedal with straight punches.

In MA, we try to find the right key to open the right lock. there is no master key that can be used to open all locks.

The rhino guard is not designed to be used when your opponent is moving around.

The rhino guard is only used when your opponent moves in and you move in at the same time. The window may be very small.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The rhino guard is not designed to be used when your opponent is moving around.

The rhino guard is only used when your opponent moves in and you move in at the same time. The window may be very small.

This makes more sense to me. I was basing my opinion and thoughts based on the running around in the pressure video

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is another pressure testing clip.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This makes more sense to me. I was basing my opinion and thoughts based on the running around in the pressure video

If my opponent is moving around, a different fighting strategy will be used.