Reputation gone?

[arnisador]

People are going to complain when it is on and people are going to complain to you for turning it off and wonder why all of a sudden it is being done so.

Yes, if it stays off then soon they'll forget about the rep. option, and new users won't know. There'll be fewer complaints with it gone.

If a few bad apples are going to win, that is really sad.

Is it clear than anyone has won?

Pos rep encourages newbies to participate and neg reps, if used properly, can make one reflect on their posts, hopefully growing as a person, otherwise it weeds out the trolls.

I agree--though I think the trolls get weeded out anyway. Still, it can also happen that someone gets bad rep. and sees no way out of that and hardens his or her position. Still, I think you're right that it can be a real force for improvement.

Everyone tries to get their post count up. Look at the threads, long since moved to the UB&G, of the "change a letter" form that say in the first post "Let's start a thread to keep our post counts up!" Then rep. comes in and people want to maximize that too. It distracts from solid posting, in a lot of ways, I think. Start a metric, people will focus on maximizing it. Is that good?

 

[arnisador]

How about setting up a new user group for people allowed to give rep? Only put people in it that are not likely to abuse it and remove immediately if they do. This could be for giving positive and negative.

Supporting members, mentors, mods, and anyone else deemed "trustworthy".

Wow, what a nightmare this would be--selecting (and deselecting) a MartialTalk nobility. I shudder to think about the whining--"Why does he get to give rep. but I don't?" It'd be much worse than rep. itself. What you say if the consensus of the staff is that you were--to use your word--untrustworthy? It'd cause a lot of hard feelings.

MartialTalk has almost as many gradations of memberships as it has members already: Members, Supporting Members, Mentors, Advisors, half a dozen or more flavors of mods and admins...stop the madness!

 

[arnisador]

I'd guess there is a Admin control panel that controls what features are on and off as well as all the settings related to them

Anyways, if you are curious get your computer running Apache, MySQL and PHP, download and install Simple Machines or PHPBB and play with it. Source is available to you as both are written in php.

There are other forums you can download, but those are two of the better free ones.

Check out www.vbulletin.com and www.vbulletin.org (and note that the feature under discussion is often referred to as karma).

 

[Bob Hubbard]

oh
my question is beyond that
i was actually asking from a technical perspective. I do programming too, so i was wondering about the interface between the backend the php...
and thats why its way off topic! haha
thank you though

Mantis,
vB is has a mysql backend. You can find a ton of intel out at vbulletin.com.
Short answer, there is a back end control panel, plus all of the raw database is accessable through phpmyadmin.

 

[dubljay]

oh
my question is beyond that
i was actually asking from a technical perspective. I do programming too, so i was wondering about the interface between the backend the php...
and thats why its way off topic! haha
thank you though

haha my appologies mantis, I am not all together at the moment. I am hopped up on cold pills and badly dehydrated. Some how I've managed to get one helluva flu virus

. I should have read your post more carefully. Yay for psudeophedrine hyrdrochloride! (ok I'm gonna go pass out now)

 

[Andrew Green]

Wow, what a nightmare this would be--selecting (and deselecting) a MartialTalk nobility. I shudder to think about the whining--"Why does he get to give rep. but I don't?" It'd be much worse than rep. itself. What you say if the consensus of the staff is that you were--to use your word--untrustworthy? It'd cause a lot of hard feelings.

No, that's not what I mean, basically give it to all the groups above member, possibly add another step on the way to mentor that only gets ability to influence rep as a new ability.

But if it is going to happen for giving negative, I think it should happen for positive as well.

Not giving it to 90% of the active members.... just a handful.

But I think the best option is one of two things:

Complete annonymity, no comments, no names, don't point it to threads. Just a total and the squares. If you don't know who, what, where or why you can't complain about it. Might also halp to run a check for people repeatidly hitting the same person in there.

or

No annonymity, names get posted next to comments. Keep things honest.

Any drastic change to how it is distributed and by who is going to unbalance what has already been done. If all of a sudden there is 1/4 of the rep being given newbies are going to find it near impossible to catch up.

Start a metric, people will focus on maximizing it. Is that good?

Depends on the metric.

If it encourages good thought out posts, maybe posting techniques with pictures, and things that make the board a good place to go then yes.

If it encourages posting nonsense just for increasing post count then no.

 

[arnisador]

The Reputation system has been temporarily disabled due to a few bad apples abusing it. While most of our members used it responsibly and as intended, a few have been using it to insult, demean, belittle and otherwise abuse it.

Is this stuff that would have been inappropriate if posted also, or stuff that might have been OK if put up for open debate but not OK anonymously? I ask because I assume that flat-out slurs against a person or group would get action taken against the user in any event.

In addition to the abuse, the constant complaints, several bordering on whining from a few individuals guilty of the same abuse they complain about has gotten tiring.

I certainly grew tired of the many in-the-forum complaints about these behind-the-scenes battles. Yet, I also found it useful, for many of the reasons given here already.

They are:
- Remove the system completely
- Force commenter ID (meaning your name will be visible)
- Allow only Positive Rep.
- Allow anyone positive rep, but only supporting members or above can neg-rep.
- Disallowing comments all together. Just + or -

If anonymity is removed, I don't see much value to it. It is then just a PM that also gives a person a nudge in the perceived 'race' to get more more more green. Allowing only pos. rep. makes the racing aspect worse, to my mind.

Limiting those who can give neg. rep. makes some sense, but then in addition to the jealousy factor, whenever a person gets neg. rep. he or she will know which 'class' of people to blame. If neg. rep. is limited to mods./admins then it becomes, in essence, just a lowest-level warning.

I think mandatory anonymity gives the best variety of board options--it is then truly different from a PM--and it also limits tit-for-tat up-repping, which contributes to the race. (In academia we call these 'citation circles', wherein I'll cite your paper if you cite mine.) But, that does nothing to solve your problem, which I'm sure is very real--both in terms of valid complaints, and in terms of staff time investigating other complaints (which must be more of a pain than looking at questionable posts in a forum).

I might suggest that you consider only allowing it to be used in the martial arts fora. It seems that many complaints posted are about getting neg. rep. for an opinion in The Study, say. Anything that shifts more of the focus away from the General Talk area and back to the arts fora is good to my mind. The increased 'fun' brings people in and keeps them here, but I see fewer and fewer solid martial arts post (and I find myself then going with the flow on that).

Frankly, I think there'll be no long-term negative effects from dropping it and there could be some good ones. It causes trouble everywhere--red dots, the scarelt letters of MartialTalk, publicly brand a person an outcast unless he or she pays the price to remove the stain. The belts and post count do serve to keep people motivated to post--for better or worse--and as was suggested the red and green dots have the potential to do the same, but carry too many negatives with them.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is this stuff that would have been inappropriate if posted also, or stuff that might have been OK if put up for open debate but not OK anonymously? I ask because I assume that flat-out slurs against a person or group would get action taken against the user in any event.

Both. It seems that when people think they can't be seen, that their worst behavior comes out.

 

[Lisa]

Both. It seems that when people think they can't be seen, that their worst behavior comes out.

Just a question. What has happened in the past to those individuals that have misused the rep system? Do they get suspended for misuse? Is it the same penalty as slamming someone publicly?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I think a "forced I.D." would solve the problems.

But I will accept all that you decide, Bob.


Regards,


Steve

 

[terryl965]

Bob and the rest of the forum I believe rep points need to stay it is a way to measure one own abilitys to contribute to this forum. I have gotten some dings but I know what I did to upset the person and was able to adjust my writing to not to offend that person again. I also understand people abusing the system but we do not live in a perfect world those things will happen on a chat line please consider dealing with these types of people on a individual basis and not take something down for a few bad apples.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a question. What has happened in the past to those individuals that have misused the rep system? Do they get suspended for misuse? Is it the same penalty as slamming someone publicly?

It depended on what was said. In most cases, the "dings" were either deleted, or the charges "reversed" meaning the negatives were converted to positives. In a few cases, the ability to give was removed or restricted, and there was at least 1 ban due to the nature of the comments made I believe.

 

[Lisa]

It depended on what was said. In most cases, the "dings" were either deleted, or the charges "reversed" meaning the negatives were converted to positives. In a few cases, the ability to give was removed or restricted, and there was at least 1 ban due to the nature of the comments made I believe.

So can't the same rules, or rules very similar to those from the public forum be applied to the rep system? What about Reputation moderators, or would those just cause more problems and headaches? They deal witht he misuse of the rep system. Just a simple idea, which I am sure someone will point out to me has many adverse side effects if implemented

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I have mixed feelings on this. If it is becoming a hassle for staff, and we must remember that they are VOLUNTEERS, than deep six it. However, it does have many positive aspects to it. When I first started on MT, those green dots let me know who to pay REAL attention to. Also, I have seen behavior improve as a result of individuals getting "dinged" so many times for the same bad behavior. I think there are already significant safeguards in it and the best solution, from my perspective (understanding that I don't have to put up with the junk the staff does) would be to vigorously remove the rep. privileges of members who misuses the system.

Perhaps let it go away for a little while and come back with a new policy? A short break might not be a bad idea regardless of what is decided. I like Lisa's idea of a rep. moderator.

BTW, I have an idea of who was banned for comments made with the rep. function and - GOOD RIDDANCE! If it was who I think it was (no names), this person, while knowledgeable, was an extremely immature person, of phenomenal ego, and was prone to having adult tantrums.

 

[arnisador]

When I first started on MT, those green dots let me know who to pay REAL attention to.

Can you elaborate? Were these technical matters, or 'social' matters of how one acts on MartialTalk? Did you not take the advice from a person with 3 green dots when it conflicted with advice from someone with 10 green dots? I'm not being sarcastic--I really wonder just how people have used them other than as a personal stockpile.

I wonder how many other people found them useful in this way?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Can you elaborate? Were these technical matters, or 'social' matters of how one acts on MartialTalk? Did you not take the advice from a person with 3 green dots when it conflicted with advice from someone with 10 green dots? I'm not being sarcastic--I really wonder just how people have used them other than as a personal stockpile.

I wonder how many other people found them useful in this way?

I'm glad YOU brought this up, Arnisador (as well as Blossoming Angel), because YOU are the member I was referring to. No longer on staff but with significant enough "green stuff" for me to search and read your previous posts.

And no, the amount of green dots never affected my consideration of another's post - they only pointed out to me members to take specific care in reading because obviously someone thought they made good points. Now, the RED DOTS did influence me. One member had the maximum red allowable, IIRC, and that let me know straightaway that he very likely was full of something not nice. Y'All know who I mean - he taught H2H to the "special forces" or some such, and couldn't document jack.

 

[arnisador]

I see! Well, this kind of thing makes me more favorable to rep.--not that it was me, but that someone found it useful in this way. I don't hear that said very often.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The idea of a "rep moderator" while sound, doesn't work when you look at the way the system works. Basically, unless someone complains, we don't know theres a problem. Theres no simple "view all rep" function. There is also the simple problem that we tend to stumble across the complaints moreso than receive them. Despite over a hundred postings on how to bring rep-concerns to us, people continue to bury them in the middle of threads, disrupting those threads, and generating little "rep wars" as people sling dings at each other. I suppose we could start suspending everyone who does that, or issue warnings, but the paperwork, even in an electronic way, would be a bigger headache. It just takes 1 person peeing in the punchbowl to ruin a party. My mission, stop the piddler.

I've updated BuffaloIT to vB3.5 and activated the rep system there, along with a few add-ins. I'll be doing more digging, and experimenting this week. IF! all goes well, when I upgrade MT to 3.5 I will bring the rep-system back.

 

[mantis]

Mantis,
vB is has a mysql backend. You can find a ton of intel out at vbulletin.com.
Short answer, there is a back end control panel, plus all of the raw database is accessable through phpmyadmin.

im actually working on a CRM project and im doing the proof of concept for it. it's C#, asp.net, and oracle for the backend We definitely should have the turn on/off a feature so i was wondering how it's done... well i guess it's not the place to ask something like that here.
thank you though

 

[mantis]

haha my appologies mantis, I am not all together at the moment. I am hopped up on cold pills and badly dehydrated. Some how I've managed to get one helluva flu virus

. I should have read your post more carefully. Yay for psudeophedrine hyrdrochloride! (ok I'm gonna go pass out now)

sorry for that..
get well sir!