Repeated movements in the first form

[wckf92]

Do you think Yipman show real stuff to his 1000+ students...ofc not. I think he didnt even show to 1 student real wing chun

Ok. I'm just trying to understand your earlier comment about "all styles in one style gives real wing chun". Are you saying you have learned more than one style of Yip Man wing chun? And then somehow combined them into one version?

 

[SifuBoza]

Ok. I'm just trying to understand your earlier comment about "all styles in one style gives real wing chun". Are you saying you have learned more than one style of Yip Man wing chun? And then somehow combined them into one version?

Yes something like that

 

[wckf92]

Only 1 tansao in form. But why 3 fuk sao ?

I'd have to see your first form to be sure...but I suspect the number of Tan sau's would depend on your definition...

 

[Oily Dragon]

It took Ngmui about 20 years to complete the first form after the collapse of the Shaolin temple.

Hey. No.

There's a lot to unpack here assuming you are operating in good faith. Which I will.

Where did you get this info from?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Our sifu says, the amount of times a technique appears in the form is a good indicator of its importance. Repeated more times so each time you do the form you get more practice on those really important elements.

Yes.

Hell, if I haven't sat in horse stance and done countless repetitions of Two Fingers Supporting the Heavens, and other classic Ming-era technique for leading qi around the body. Strengthens the heart and lungs.

Makes you wonder, people will try to fit a couple reps of Siu Lum in a day, when they could just repeat sections for hours. Once you've done that (lost yourself in an hour of nonstop motion) you begin to see why people did them hundreds of years ago: to kill time and stay limber.

If you're really advanced in the southern arts like Wing Chun, you're supposed to move on to using ring, wooden staff weights etc, but finding this level of practitioner is rare IMHO.

 

[Callen]

Only 1 tansao in form. But why 3 fuk sao ?

Welcome to MartialTalk, SifuBoza!

Interesting, there is quite a bit more than one taan sau in Siu Nim Tao/Siu Lim Tao in all of the Yip Man lineages. Can you tell us more about who you learned from, or share a video example of your form?

And out of curiosity, what's your opinion to your own question? Can you tell us why you think there are only 1 taan sau and 3 fuk sau in the first form?

Yes but real yip man style not youtube wing chun style and not yipman sons style

IMO, you do not need to play politics here or put other people down in order to convince us that you have the "real Yip Man Wing Chun". Really, you don't have to flex. We're pretty open-minded here, just tell us about yourself.

What's your actual experience, where does your knowledge come from, etc...?

It took Ngmui about 20 years to complete the first form after the collapse of the Shaolin temple.

Unfortunately, there isn't much evidence to support this claim.

Yes something like that

Perhaps you can you tell us more about your Wing Chun.

You said you learned several Yip Man styles, we would love to hear more about that. Which lineages did you learn and who were your sifu? How long have you been training, and where? Etc..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can someone explain to me why some movements are repeated in the first form?

During the

- beginner training stage, a move may appear in the form many times. Students will be forced to drill that same move over and over.
- intermediate and advance training stage, a move may only appear in the form once. It's student's responsibility to drill that move over and over.

 

[SifuBoza]

Welcome to MartialTalk, SifuBoza!

Interesting, there is quite a bit more than one taan sau in Siu Nim Tao/Siu Lim Tao in all of the Yip Man lineages. Can you tell us more about who you learned from, or share a video example of your form?

And out of curiosity, what's your opinion to your own question? Can you tell us why you think there are only 1 taan sau and 3 fuk sau in the first form?



IMO, you do not need to play politics here or put other people down in order to convince us that you have the "real Yip Man Wing Chun". Really, you don't have to flex. We're pretty open-minded here, just tell us about yourself.

What's your actual experience, where does your knowledge come from, etc...?



Unfortunately, there isn't much evidence to support this claim.



Perhaps you can you tell us more about your Wing Chun.

You said you learned several Yip Man styles, we would love to hear more about that. Which lineages did you learn and who were your sifu? How long have you been training, and where? Etc..

I meant 1 tansau but few ways of doing it. I will post some videos soon. Dont belong to any lineage. Dont like organizations...

 

[SifuBoza]

Welcome to MartialTalk, SifuBoza!

Interesting, there is quite a bit more than one taan sau in Siu Nim Tao/Siu Lim Tao in all of the Yip Man lineages. Can you tell us more about who you learned from, or share a video example of your form?

And out of curiosity, what's your opinion to your own question? Can you tell us why you think there are only 1 taan sau and 3 fuk sau in the first form?



IMO, you do not need to play politics here or put other people down in order to convince us that you have the "real Yip Man Wing Chun". Really, you don't have to flex. We're pretty open-minded here, just tell us about yourself.

What's your actual experience, where does your knowledge come from, etc...?



Unfortunately, there isn't much evidence to support this claim.



Perhaps you can you tell us more about your Wing Chun.

You said you learned several Yip Man styles, we would love to hear more about that. Which lineages did you learn and who were your sifu? How long have you been training, and where? Etc..

Sorry, i am bad wing english translator. Didnt want to be rude..i am open minded too but only for practical and usefull stuf

 

[MadMartigan]

Our sifu says, the amount of times a technique appears in the form is a good indicator of its importance. Repeated more times so each time you do the form you get more practice on those really important elements.

To piggy-back off this thought.
It doesn't strickly mean those moves are more important in the grand scheme of the art (though the most basic, fundamental movements are the foundation of any martial art - thus most important). It means those moves are most important for the beginner to focus on now.
The first form literally means 'little idea'. It's goal is to introduce the beginner to the very basic idea of the art.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

To piggy-back off this thought.
It doesn't strickly mean those moves are more important in the grand scheme of the art (though the most basic, fundamental movements are the foundation of any martial art - thus most important). It means those moves are most important for the beginner to focus on now.
The first form literally means 'little idea'. It's goal is to introduce the beginner to the very basic idea of the art.

precisely.

What you practice most and how you practice it evolves over your training life.

siu lim tao is among the first things taught and is largely about developing the body to do wing chun well. Its the foundation.Thats the best way ive found to summarise it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

To piggy-back off this thought.
It doesn't strickly mean those moves are more important in the grand scheme of the art (though the most basic, fundamental movements are the foundation of any martial art - thus most important). It means those moves are most important for the beginner to focus on now.
The first form literally means 'little idea'. It's goal is to introduce the beginner to the very basic idea of the art.

Siu Nim/Lim (little 念) comes in part from Sanskrit स्मृति. It's one of the connections between Wing Chun and Buddhism, that little symbol.

Talk about piggy backing! Buddhist logic out of Snake, Crane, and Dragon styles. I wasn't expecting that when I found it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Our sifu says, the amount of times a technique appears in the form is a good indicator of its importance. Repeated more times so each time you do the form you get more practice on those really important elements.

I know little of Wing Chun (though in many ways it's similar to Okinawan karate), but this reason makes little sense to me. If one wants to practice a particular (even important) move, doing an entire form just to repeat it 3 or 4 times seems very inefficient. Drilling a move one hundred times makes more sense. Forms are not to drill, but to provide the essence of a system for reference and to provide context for technique application (among other things such as balance and flow). Practicing the moves comes from repetitive drilling.

Moves are repeated in forms to give practice to both left and right sides doing the technique, or to execute it turning to the left, right or rear sides. Sometimes they are repeated to illustrate a technique's variation of application (though this feature has sometimes been lost over the decades, so the moves may appear exactly the same). Sometimes it's repeated consecutively as doing it twice in a row is effective for entering or progressively moving the opponent out of position.

I think all the above are more likely reasons for a move's repetition in forms than to merely give extra practice in executing the technique. No doubt there are other reasons as well. Older, traditional forms are often more complex and deeper planned than we give them credit for. Not knowing the inner workings of the form lead many to interpret them more simply based just what can be seen on the surface as suggested by your post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our sifu says, the amount of times a technique appears in the form is a good indicator of its importance. Repeated more times so each time you do the form you get more practice on those really important elements.

Form is not used to drill. Form is used to record information. Will you buy a 100 pages book that each and every page has only 1 sentence as "This is a book."

Also you may learn "This is a book." when you are in the 1st year of your grade school. Does it make sense that "This is a book." also appear in your high school book, college book, and also gradulate school book?

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Repeating your grade school 5 times won't get you a PhD degree.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Form is not used to drill. Form is used to record information. Will you buy a 100 pages book that each and every page has only 1 sentence as "This is a book."

Also you may learn "This is a book." when you are in the 1st year of your grade school. Does it make sense that "This is a book." also appear in your high school book, college book, and also gradulate school book?

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Repeating your grade school 5 times won't get you a PhD degree.

If we want to stick to Chinese kuen fat, it gets a little tricky, because some of them like Tai Chi's forms are like you say. You don't strengthen your body or anything from that practice, it's for learning basic movement.

But then compare that to the Tiger Crane Fist sets. They contain information sure, but those sets are basically HIIT calisthenic routines. They are hard as hell, and heart attack inducing if you're not marginally fit (and why normally people don't learn or attempt it when just starting out).

Wing Chun is a hybrid of sorts. The fist sets themselves aren't very physically demanding, but they could be by adding things like reps and weights (again basic HIIT stuff). Who knows why. That always made WC stick out for me. The Wing Chun sets are cherry picked material found in other, larger southern styles too. But often the physical discipline is missing, compared to some other styles that pride themselves on the grace and power of their disciples.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I know little of Wing Chun (though in many ways it's similar to Okinawan karate), but this reason makes little sense to me. If one wants to practice a particular (even important) move, doing an entire form just to repeat it 3 or 4 times seems very inefficient. Drilling a move one hundred times makes more sense. Forms are not to drill, but to provide the essence of a system for reference and to provide context for technique application (among other things such as balance and flow). Practicing the moves comes from repetitive drilling.

Moves are repeated in forms to give practice to both left and right sides doing the technique, or to execute it turning to the left, right or rear sides. Sometimes they are repeated to illustrate a technique's variation of application (though this feature has sometimes been lost over the decades, so the moves may appear exactly the same). Sometimes it's repeated consecutively as doing it twice in a row is effective for entering or progressively moving the opponent out of position.

I think all the above are more likely reasons for a move's repetition in forms than to merely give extra practice in executing the technique. No doubt there are other reasons as well. Older, traditional forms are often more complex and deeper planned than we give them credit for. Not knowing the inner workings of the form lead many to interpret them more simply based just what can be seen on the surface as suggested by your post.

Ever taken ballet? You should.

It's very similar to martial arts form, but the big difference? The world is filled with master dancers, but not master martial artists.

That's because dancers figured out how to stretch those basic forms into not only traditional classics like Swan Lake, but also a personal style. And the only way to get there is doing forms over and over until the "dancer becomes the dance", to quote the poet. Ballet looks soft and demure, but it's a brutal physical discipline.

Oh, if only our martial arts brethren could see that, but honestly, that kind of devotion is hard to find in an age when everyone just wants to play YouTube master.

 

[Yanli]

Okay but then why, for example, tansao is not repeated 3 times, or bongsao. I dont understand why that movement is so important if it is repeated

As in other MA forms, there are certain moves that are most effective in various offense and defense.

 

[Callen]

As in other MA forms, there are certain moves that are most effective in various offense and defense.

The frequency of a shape in Siu Nim Tao (or Cham Kiu and Biu Jee for that matter) does not reflect the priority of its effectiveness.

Each of the hands (shapes) in the Wing Chun system are parts of the same whole. Likewise the forms also teach development. So each form has shapes (mechanics) and concepts that do not translate into a literal application.

Wing Chun is not about doing a technique or “move”, it’s about using the shapes (mechanics) and concepts that drive the reactions and goals of the system. One of the goals being Lin Siu Daai Da 連消帶打, simultaneous attack and defense. In this way of thinking there are no specific offensive or defensive hands, shapes or "moves" found in any Wing Chun form.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Form is not used to drill. Form is used to record information. Will you buy a 100 pages book that each and every page has only 1 sentence as "This is a book."

Also you may learn "This is a book." when you are in the 1st year of your grade school. Does it make sense that "This is a book." also appear in your high school book, college book, and also gradulate school book?

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Repeating your grade school 5 times won't get you a PhD degree.

Awesome!

 

[Olde Phart]

Referring back to the OP's original question re: why certain moves are repeated in forms, I can only relate thru the experiences I have personally.

Early forms have basic moves that tend to repeat. To me, they are there for me to learn a pattern (gee, a block seems to be followed by a punch/kick an awful lot of the time!) as well as learning specific techniques. The newer/younger we are in a certain MA, the sloppier we are. Hence, "practice makes perfect".

There are only so many kicks, punches, blocks and throws. The key to katas/hyungs are how that limited quantity is employed. Come up with 20-30 moves to the right, then double it to the left! The goal is control of the body thru controlling the mind. Years of work brings about the perfection in the moves learned long ago. Repetition builds "muscle memory": you simply know what to do next.

Once you have the "arsenal" of the repeated basics, they become natural in a grappling or sparring situation. When something opens up, you take advantage of the moment. I've noticed over the years that my horse stance is much more defined compared to the noobs next to me; my blocks more definite; my strikes more purposeful.

Repetition has its place.