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[Flying Crane]

Takedowns, in general, are highly ineffective. A chop to the neck negates the takedown and ends the fight, as can be witnessed in any video of a competitive fight.


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I’m taking your statement as tongue-in-cheek, but at the same time I think there is merit in the thought.

If a takedown is attempted on a person who is not altogether without skill, and that person has room to maneuver and he has some inkling that the takedown will be attempted, then it is often not too difficult to use distance and some basic jamming to nullify the attempt. This would work well for someone who simply wants to escape and get away, and there may well be an opportunity to deliver a shot to the chops or a kick to the leg in the process, that could help realize that goal.

But if the victim has no real skill or is caught significantly by surprise, then a good takedown by someone who knows his business is tough to beat.

That holds true for a strike as well.

If someone is caught by surprise with a sucker punch, that is pretty hard and perhaps impossible, to defend against.

But if that person has an inkling that an attack may be coming, and has the room to maneuver and create distance with the goal of escaping from the situation, then it isn’t that difficult.

In the context of a competition where both competitors welcome the engagement, everything changes, however.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You seem to be playing the " I'm much better than you" card to belittle my view, however it seems that I'm not Falling for that

Nah. I mean, I do have a lot more grappling experience than you do, but you've never met me and I wouldn't expect you to accept me as some sort of authority without having the opportunity to evaluate my skills personally. For all you know I'm some wannabee internet poser who has fabricated all my claimed qualifications.

I would hope that you recognize that there are people out there who have devoted a lot more time than you have to developing the skills necessary for taking down resisting opponents and that those people might have more insight into the subject than you do.

My accomplishments are i can hold my own with a 280lbs monster and my assessment of the single leg grab is it won't work, particularly it won't work if they weigh 280lbs and have legs like tree trunks. if you put you heaD in like that to push, they will forearm smash you to the ground

Hey, that's great that you can handle yourself in a fight against a 280 pound monster. Those guys are always a challenge, even when they aren't trained. Regardless of your approach (punching, kicking, throwing, etc) you have to be on top of your game. (Unless you are a huge guy yourself.)

When you fought such big guys, did you use some sort of takedown? If so, that would be a good indication that you found some good grappling methodology that works for you. If you did not, then it's not really relevant to your qualifications for knowing what works for takedowns.

When you say "the single leg grab won't work" are you talking about just the particular entry KFM uses in that video or are you talking about single leg takedowns in general? Because if you're talking about the latter, there's a huge amount of empirical evidence that single leg takedowns can work against resistance - even the resistance of strong, skilled fighters.

It won't work against anybody that uses you ducked in head as a target, or someone who takes the opportunity to bitE your ear or grab you by the throat and squeeze the life out of you or bear hugs your neck. Or just an old fashioned finger in the eye,I'N short it won't work anywhere outside a dojo a cooperating partner, things ether work in the real world or they are just demos,

Just about all those responses will typically end up with you on the ground and the wrestler on top of you. In KFM's entry, the opponent's right arm is checked so it's not available for throat grabs, eye pokes, or whatever. The opponent's left hand is at a bad angle for effective grabbing or poking. The opponent's head is not in a good position for biting. In addition, the opponent is off-balanced backward which hurts his ability to strike effectively and he's about a second away from being taken down.

If you have some technical critique of the entry based on your experience with grappling, I'd love to hear it. I have a couple of reasons why that particular entry wouldn't be at the top of my go-to list. If your argument comes down to just "single legs don't work" or "wrestling doesn't work when the opponent fights dirty", then you would probably benefit from some experience with real wrestlers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a couple of reasons why that particular entry wouldn't be at the top of my go-to list.

I would love to hear your reasons. Thanks in advance.

The single leg and head lock are my bread and butter moves. I have used single leg to win 7 rounds back to back in one Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament back in 1982. Most of my entering strategies are designed for that purpose. I love to improve it if I can.

I have received last Sunday's "head squeeze" clips from my student. But I have "dropbox full" issue that my student needs to fix it first. I try to use the free Dropbox instead of having to pay $9.99/month.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would love to hear your reasons. Thanks in advance.

The single leg and head lock are my bread and butter. Most of my entering strategies are designed for that purpose. I love to improve it if I can.

I have received last Sunday's "head squeeze" clips from my student. But I have "dropbox full" issue that my student needs to fix it first. I try to use the free Dropbox instead of having to pay $9.99/month.

If you want the leg hook (o uchi gari in Japanese) to be a takedown threat in itself, then it works better keeping the foot low to the ground. By lifting it high you get the possibility of the single leg, but you sacrifice some probability of finishing with the initial reap.

If I am just going for the single leg and don't care about the reap, then I prefer to lead with my head driving into his ribs. That way if he is heavy and planted then I drive his weight to his back leg and make the front leg light. You're doing the same thing pushing with your hands, but I find that I get a lot more unbalancing power driving with my head.

Your method ends with you holding the opponent's leg to the outside. That's okay, there are a few good finishes from here. However I find I like my finishing options better with the leg between my thighs or to the inside.

That said, your method probably fits in well with the rest of your game. I may give it a shot when I get a chance, but I don't think it will fit my approach so well.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW - single legs aren't as popular in MMA as double legs, but here's one fighter who does them very well:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want the leg hook (o uchi gari in Japanese) to be a takedown.

From the sport point of view, if I can take my opponent down by "inner hook (o uchi gari)", I win and my opponent loses. But from the combat point of view, take down may not be a valid "finish move" by itself. If I can hold on one of my opponent's leg and take him down, not only I can drop my knee between his groin. I can also twist his leg, sit on his back, and apply leg bar on him. after I have obtained one of my opponent's legs in my arm, I will have more than 8 different ways to take him down.

Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg, if you still can't take him down, you may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

BTW - single legs aren't as popular in MMA as double legs, ...

Of course if you can get both of your opponent's legs, it will be better than just to get his leading leg. But most of the time your opponent's legs are apart. You can reach to his leading leg, but you can't reach to his back leg. You can then get his leading leg first, and get his back leg afterward.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I am just going for the single leg and don't care about the reap, then I prefer to lead with my head driving into his ribs.

That's what I will do for double legs.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Of course if you can get both of your opponent's legs, it will be better than just to get his leading leg. But most of the time your opponent's legs are apart. You can reach to his leading leg, but you can't reach to his back leg. You can then get his leading leg first, and get his back leg afterward.

I actually like singles better myself, but in MMA doubles are much more common. Cormier is a bit of an exception in that he is more likely to use the single.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

From the sport point of view, if I can take my opponent down by "inner hook (o uchi gari)", I win and my opponent loses. But from the combat point of view, take down may not be a valid "finish move" by itself. If I can hold on one of my opponent's leg and take him down, not only I can drop my knee between his groin. I can also twist his leg, sit on his back, and apply leg bar on him. after I have obtained one of my opponent's legs in my arm, I will have more than 8 different ways to take him down.

Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "After you have obtained your opponent's leading leg, if you still can't take him down, you may need to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself."

If I took someone down in a street fight with o uchi gari, I’d be inclined to just stomp on his groin and take off. Odds are he isn’t going to catch up with me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I actually like singles better myself, but in MMA doubles are much more common. Cormier is a bit of an exception in that he is more likely to use the single.

I don't do them often but I prefer single leg take downs as well. I probably like them because I can make use of my foot hooks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I took someone down in a street fight with o uchi gari, I’d be inclined to just stomp on his groin and take off. Odds are he isn’t going to catch up with me.

If you can hold on one of your opponent's legs and hook off his other leg, that throw can be a very hard fall.

Not sure if Judo allows this kind of throw or not.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you can hold on one of your opponent's legs and hook off his other leg, that throw can be a very hard fall.

Not sure if Judo allows this kind of throw or not.

The current Judo competition rules have taken out leg grabs. I don’t like this change and a lot of Judoka agree with me.

 

[Buka]

Takedowns, in general, are highly ineffective. A chop to the neck negates the takedown and ends the fight, as can be witnessed in any video of a competitive fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

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lol Rollin on this one. Good comedy requires great timing and you just nailed it lol. A chop to the neck to stop a take down. Can't chop if you are off balance lol.


These old films are great. It's like a chop shows up after 3 techniques.

 

[Jaeimseu]

lol Rollin on this one. Good comedy requires great timing and you just nailed it lol. A chop to the neck to stop a take down. Can't chop if you are off balance lol.


These old films are great. It's like a chop shows up after 3 techniques.

To be totally clear, I was having fun with my post. The chop thing is one of many things I’ve heard people say who haven’t trained grappling/with grapplers.


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[JowGaWolf]

To be totally clear, I was having fun with my post. The chop thing is one of many things I’ve heard people say who haven’t trained grappling/with grapplers.


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Understood. I didn't think you really meant it. It's one of those things that is entertaining to me. I grew up on the tail end of the Judo / karate chop craze. It's like everyone had one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BTW - single legs aren't as popular in MMA as double legs, but here's one fighter who does them very well:

That video does a good job of showing how strikes aren't the way to stop a single-leg (even more true of double-leg) most of the time, and why single-leg isn't as popular as double-leg. That guy's a beast with it, and you can see how hard he has to fight to finish some of those takedowns even after he has the leg.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I took someone down in a street fight with o uchi gari, I’d be inclined to just stomp on his groin and take off. Odds are he isn’t going to catch up with me.

Not so fast, you forgot something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Understood. I didn't think you really meant it. It's one of those things that is entertaining to me. I grew up on the tail end of the Judo / karate chop craze. It's like everyone had one.

The master of the chop: