Questions and then some

[donald1]

i stated this title broadly mainly because i always have questins (i guess im just a curious person) i dont mind if others post questions, if you have any question someone may answer it. (i put it here because not all the questions are related and instead of making a new tgread for all my questions i thought it be smart to just put them here)​

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my first question. in martial arts anid if you want to be specific you could say the system: karate, tkd, or jiu jitsu. and if you wanted more specific you could say the style: goju(karate), shotokan(karate), isshinryu(karate) and even more specific the type of style: meibukan(goju), jundokan(goju), shoreikan(goju)
my question, can you get more specific? also do i have this down correctly or is some of it mixed up?

 

[Steve]

I don't understand the question. Are you looking for something like a martial arts version of the heirarchy of biological classification?

 

[donald1]

yes please

 

[Steve]

I don't think anyone's done this. When you get your draft done, I'd love to see it!

 

[Dirty Dog]

The "family tree" for most Martial Arts will either be a snarled, tangled incestuous mess or inaccurate.

You can generally find out the lineage of an individual, but of the entire art? Dubious, at best.

 

[K-man]

The "family tree" for most Martial Arts will either be a snarled, tangled incestuous mess or inaccurate.

You can generally find out the lineage of an individual, but of the entire art? Dubious, at best.

Even individuals aren't easy to track. In Goju for example, the lineage of two of the biggest names, Morio Higaonna and Gogen Yamaguchi, have a tangled web.

 

[Xue Sheng]

i stated this title broadly mainly because i always have questins (i guess im just a curious person) i dont mind if others post questions, if you have any question someone may answer it. (i put it here because not all the questions are related and instead of making a new tgread for all my questions i thought it be smart to just put them here)​

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my first question. in martial arts anid if you want to be specific you could say the system: karate, tkd, or jiu jitsu. and if you wanted more specific you could say the style: goju(karate), shotokan(karate), isshinryu(karate) and even more specific the type of style: meibukan(goju), jundokan(goju), shoreikan(goju)
my question, can you get more specific? also do i have this down correctly or is some of it mixed up?

If I understand the question, from a Chinese Martial Arts POV, I believe you are looking at lineage, and depending on hw far you go back you can get pretty specific. However it tends to be the most important people in the lineage that define what you do

 

[Tez3]

Is there a particular reason you want to know this or is it general sort of research?
Not that I can help sadly, it's an area I know little of. I imagine it could be very interesting but involved. Good luck with your research though.

 

[Cirdan]

Try to make a precise model for something as complex and fluid as this and the model will end up even more complicated than what it represent which in this case will be.. probably a mess. Better to study what the arts are than to try to "classify" them in neat little boxes.

 

[Zero]

Try to make a precise model for something as complex and fluid as this and the model will end up even more complicated than what it represent which in this case will be.. probably a mess. Better to study what the arts are than to try to "classify" them in neat little boxes.

I agree but if someone has the time or inclination then it would still be a pretty interesting task (not something I'd undertake). Surely this has been done or attempted though before? What would be interesting would be to be able to carry out this classification for all systems (ok, "main/mainstream" systems, otherwise it may take several lifetimes) and to show the interrelationships between them, ie when they were first influenced, altered or even instigated by other styles, such as gong fu on karate, etc.

 

[Cirdan]

I agree but if someone has the time or inclination then it would still be a pretty interesting task (not something I'd undertake). Surely this has been done or attempted though before? What would be interesting would be to be able to carry out this classification for all systems (ok, "main/mainstream" systems, otherwise it may take several lifetimes) and to show the interrelationships between them, ie when they were first influenced, altered or even instigated by other styles, such as gong fu on karate, etc.

Oh I agree it is facinating. Take Patric McCarthy`s translation of the Bubishi and the theories he put foreward about how karate came to be for instance. However even at this early point in the art`s history things are anything but clean cut and "mainstream" is hard to indentify. It is not going to fit in a neat little chart at any rate.

 

[Zero]

Well mainstream (while at the same time being the most deadly of arts) is obviously goju ryu (Okinawan), and everything else kind of just (d)evolves out of that : )

 

[Cirdan]

Which is why tho I am a Wado stylist we also have certain Goju Ryu elements.

Shizendo Karate What we teach

 

[jezr74]

Something like this? Martial Arts Lineage Project Putting martial arts history into perspective

 

[Tez3]

Something like this? Martial Arts Lineage Project Putting martial arts history into perspective

Good grief! Talk about small world! I clicked on there and found someone I knew from when I was in the RAF. I wasn't doing martial then so didn't know he did.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To properly understand lineage, you have to start with the sun source of all martial arts - Sinanju.

 

[donald1]

two quick questions please,
this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo

second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese

 

[Cirdan]

Wado is not Okinawan in origin donald, it is sometimes called the most Japanese style.

 

[Carol]

two quick questions please,
this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo

second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese

As far as kobudo, bu means war or martial but do not rely on a literal translation. The term 'kobudo' could refer to koryuu, or it could refer to traditional Okinawan weapon stylings.

As far as Okinawan styles, it wouldn't be correct to refer to them as Japanese. If you look in the Kenpo area, you'll see references to arts that are still called "Hawaiian" even though Hawaii is very much a part of the U.S. today.

 

[Chris Parker]

two quick questions please,
this one is about kobudo; ko means old do means way of now my queation is what does bu mean koBUdo

As Carol said, it is the term for "martial"… basically, kobudo 古武道 is "old martial ways". The more common usage is for Ryukyu Kobudo, which dominantly refers to weaponry systems associated with the Ryukyu Kingdom (which contains Okinawa), covering such weapons as Bo, Tonfa, Nunchaku, and Sai, but also less commonly known weapons, such as Eku (oar), Tuite, Kaiken, and more. This area of knowledge is sometimes seen alongside karate systems (more often Okinawan systems, but sometimes Japanese ones as well), although it strictly speaking is more of a separate art.

The other usage sometimes seen is as a synonym for Koryu 古流, which more literally refers to "old styles". Depending on the system and instructor, there might be a preference to refer to these arts as "Kobudo", or just "Budo" (martial ways), or "Koryu Bujutsu" (old style martial arts). It's not as common as the Ryukyu Kobudo usage, so most will automatically assume the Okinawan form.

second one okinawan styles like wadoryu, shitoryu, or gojuryu are okinawan but later okinawa became part of japan; could one this day and time say they are japanese

As Carol also said… no. It would not be correct at all. And I don't think I'd class Wado Ryu as Okinawan… at all…