Questionable background?

[BrandonLucas]

I still find the fact that these products are used in an inapropriate way to be offensive, however, I cannot condemn a person for selling these products, when these products are designed for good purposes, and are marketed as such. That's what I've come to learn....which is the key here, that it's a side of the issue I had not looked at previously....while I was working at the herb shop, I did sell QuikCaps to people who were wanting to cleanse their system so they could start a new diet..that was their explaination to me...who am I to doubt that that's the reason they're buying that product? Sure, they were probably lying, and had probably just smoked a fattie before comming into the shop, but unless they specificy that they are buying that particular product for that particular reason, then I have no right to say otherwise.

The whole reason for starting the post was to find some insight into the problem that I didn't have before...which is what happened...and has helped me in making a decision. I believe it was stated by someone else on here previously that I'm truely the only one who is going to know all of the ins and outs of the scenerio...there's just too many factors to type into one thread...I basically got the gist of what I was concerned about out at the beginning of the thread, and from the help of others, was able to look at the situation from a different perspective. If it becomes a problem with me going back to my old instructor, I'll simply get out and find another one...but for me, for now, this seems to be the best solution. If nothing else, think of this decision as the lesser of the evils...the other surrounding schools in the area are less reputible, and more expensive.

Thanks for the help.

Brandon

 

[Xue Sheng]

It was your decision to make and you made it

Best of luck to you :asian:

 

[Brian King]

Rationalization is something that we have I think all done. It means we are human but it can be a tricky thing and in this case it has helped you to internally justify your desire. As XS said "It is your decision and you have made it." Good luck in your training.

“So, off subject, for anyone who's interested, I've emailed Ashida Kim to see if he can teach me his awesome ways, and will post his response on here if he actually does resond.”

Why?

Regards
Brian King.

 

[azmyth]

lol me and brandon just discovered ashida kim yesterday. I for one, want to be able to put my hand in a bear trap, and wear a bone ninja mask.. lol..

As for the above posts..

If the instructor had said... I sell this because it helps people spread their cocaine further. I would be a bit more hesitant, because that means he would be encouraging drug use. Fortunately.. the product has other uses. If the product didn't have a legitimate health use, then he would be in jail because he's been selling the stuff for years. I can order it online, so Its obviously not illegal. That doesn't mean people aren't using it for illegal means. However, as brandon stated.. people are gonna do what they want with stuff after they buy it. People are gonna snort aerosol sprays, they are gonna sniff glue, they are gonna do all sorts of things. Alcohol and cigarettes are 2 things In my eyes that are bad for your body, and technically speaking.. martial arts are about protecting and conditioning the body. I wonder how many instructors out there drink or smoke? Those 2 things aren't against the law, and aren't even considered wrong. But, if you look at in the way I am.. its VERY wrong. It's the same as seeing a preacher sitting in a bar. Selling health products to people, and having those people use them in other ways other than the legal use.. would yes be wrong. Steroids are illegal too, but I've seen doctors use them plenty on people for medical reasons.

I think me and brandon, (since we have known the instructor forever) are the only ones who can decide whether this is justifiable or not.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry I have to ask, if you believe you are the only two who can decide why did you ask for opinions/advice? I suspect you had already made your minds up before posting. I don't understand why you brought up the subject of substances being sold as being unacceptable to you then defend the selling of them. It's not so much as what I or anyone else think, it's what you yourself had posted then did a complete U turn on the subject and start defending the sale of these items so strongly.
Steroids aren't illegal, their use is banned by many sports governing bodies.
I don't have the luxury of being so laissez faire, if I trained at a place where things of such a dubious nature were sold and where drug addicts were thought to frequent I'd lose my security clearance and therefore my career.
Of course it's entirely up to you what you do,its not about me. As I said I just find it curious you leave because you disapproved then made such a dramatic about turn and justified the selling of these products.

 

[arnisador]

things he would sell were QuickCaps, which clean your system for drug screens, and Inosotol powder, which he explained to me that people would buy to add to cocaine to spread it further. I very much disagreed with these business practices, and left the dojo for this reason.

(Emphasis added.)

lIf the instructor had said... I sell this because it helps people spread their cocaine further. I would be a bit more hesitant, because that means he would be encouraging drug use.[...]I think me and brandon, (since we have known the instructor forever) are the only ones who can decide whether this is justifiable or not.

Agreed. I think what concerns people is that BrandonLucas seemed to have already decided in his first post. You two know best what the real story is and we're just reading what's been posted and no doubt reading things into it that aren't there.

I certainly won't argue with his decision. But I think expressing some concern is not unjustified. A compromise is being made. That's life, but it's worth being clear about it.

 

[azmyth]

I think one key factor here, and something that was left out..

Brandonw as just talking to me on the phone. Brandon is 25 now.. at the time of working in the shop he was 17. Things can be misconstrued, and will be when thought is not put into consideration. I NEVER.. ever heard the instructor ever sell any of those products specifically for those purposes. If he was peddling stuff to drug users then I would be gone in a second. I didn't leave for that reason myself. I left because of there being no adults. Brandon, told me that the instructor explained to him what the "possible" uses for the product was. More in a informational way, than in a "I'm selling this because...." way. I think it just needs to be said, that the instructor doesn't sell the products for those purposes. GNC sells the same thing...

 

[BrandonLucas]

I appologize for not being very clear...things come out differently when you write or type them out than they seem in your head, which I think I have done here, and it's caused some confusion...

First, my mind was truely not made up when I started this thread. At the time when I left my instructor, I didn't really understand that people have a "free will" to use the products as they see fit...to my 17-year-old-I-want-to-save-the-world-from-evil mindset, I saw the selling of these products as wrong...and I really haven't reflected too much on it until just recently. I know this seems like I'm doing a complete U turn here, but I am not as far as I can see...I have changed my way of thinking. Where I was a senior in highschool and young and inexperienced in life, I'm now 25 years old...which still isn't that old....but I have experienced quite a bit more in my life that makes me see things differently than I used to. At the time, I thought I was taking a moral stand on something concrete, but now I see that instead of things being black and white, there were different shades of grey involved that I didn't see before...and the sad thing is that it took me having to get other opinions thrown in before I could rationally make a decision. I'm not sure if this is going to make any sense to anyone else, and I appologize again for not being very clear...but I have an understanding in my mind, and I feel like I'm making the right decision. And I do enjoy seeing opinions from both sides of the fence...it just gives me and anyone else that reads this stuff more insight. Maybe someone else is going through something similar...who knows?

Secondly, and I feel like this is important to state, because it really hasn't been stated, I mean no disrespect to my friend from whom I was taking recently. I really think that I have learned another valuable lesson in that it's very hard to have a student/teacher relationship with someone that you have been friends with for a long time. His art may be good for some of the other students that are taking from him...I just feel like it's not for me. I basically see it like this: Bruce Lee had to start somewhere, otherwise Jeet Kune Do would not be what it is today. He had to come up with his own system, and people had to be willing to be "guinea pigs" of some description in order for his system to take off. And he taught plenty of people with no prior martial arts experience. I just think that it was a good learning experience for me that I prefer something that is already founded. I hope noone that reads this thread goes away thinking any ill thoughts toward him or his teachings, because I wish him the best of luck, and I believe that he is a talented martial artist. It is true that he has gotten much of his rank from a few seminars, but the thing is that he is actually able to perform the moves that were taught in the seminars...whether I agree with the method of ranking or not, I have to admit that he's good at what he does...although sometimes I don't think he thinks as a teacher, which is another reason I think it's time for me to move on. At any rate, I'm going to talk to him at some point and clear the air with him.

Lastly, and I know this is pretty much a redundant thing to post on a martial arts forum, but I really appreciate the fact that everyone that has posted on here has been respectful in offering their opinions. I'm a member of another forum for musicians, and if you ask for opinions on any topic, you will always get a million different opinions that are "THE" answer to your question, and if you consider anything other than what that particular person posted, then you don't deserve to live. It's very refreshing to come to a place where people can actually be openminded enough to hear all sides of a topic and offer opinions and not get offended by any answers that differ from their own.

So with that, I will respectfully bow out for the night.

 

[jks9199]

Sorry I have to ask, if you believe you are the only two who can decide why did you ask for opinions/advice? I suspect you had already made your minds up before posting. I don't understand why you brought up the subject of substances being sold as being unacceptable to you then defend the selling of them. It's not so much as what I or anyone else think, it's what you yourself had posted then did a complete U turn on the subject and start defending the sale of these items so strongly.
Steroids aren't illegal, their use is banned by many sports governing bodies.
I don't have the luxury of being so laissez faire, if I trained at a place where things of such a dubious nature were sold and where drug addicts were thought to frequent I'd lose my security clearance and therefore my career.
Of course it's entirely up to you what you do,its not about me. As I said I just find it curious you leave because you disapproved then made such a dramatic about turn and justified the selling of these products.

I'm in agreement with you, Tez.

If the guy was running an herbalist shop that happened to include some products that can be used to conceal drug use or cut dope... that's one thing. That's comparable to someone who has a shop that sells razor blades and pocket mirrors (which are often used to prepare powder coke for ingestion), along with other toiletries. But the way it was originally described sounds a lot like what we'd call a head shop; a business that caters to illegal drug use. Sure, they'll tell you that they're just selling hair clips and water pipes/hookahs, etc. for use with legal tobacco products... but it's said with a wink and knudge.

It's their choice. I'm not there. I don't know what the store is really like. To me, there's a very simple test: Can you accept and live with the rationalizations that appear to be necessary to justify training with the person?

 

[azmyth]

to put it simply. All it would be called is a "mom and pop" GNC store. He sells exactly the same stuff GNC does, and GNC is one of the biggest most used health and herbal chains on the planet. He's not shady about it. He sells herbal supplements, vitamins, like I said.. anything you would find at GNC he probably sells it. Martial Arts is not exactly a big money maker down here. The town I live in, 5 minutes away from his school has 457 people in it. Our biggest commodity is Wal Mart.

He opened in 1978.. thats a long freaking time to be in business.

 

[Brian King]

Pardons for the * mini rant* following. Speaking as somebody that takes his personal and business reputation seriously I think that this thread and its related thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58408 should be required reading for people new to online posting and as a reminder to those that post often. Both threads started out disrespecting former instructors and calling the instructors character into question only to turn it around later in this thread and say they are good guys. Those instructors will see these threads or be told about them sooner or later. Perspective students and students belonging to both schools will read these threads, and the instructor’s peers may read these threads. These threads and the words written may last forever. These threads may affect the livelihood of the instructors and their reputations and the reputation of the posters as well. People really need to think twice before hitting the send key. Is what is written really what they want to say and have out there forever? Saying I was/am young, I didn’t mean it, communicating with the written word and getting across ideas and meanings is difficult or I was only joking; in my opinion none of these are acceptable excuses for putting out damaging and/or stupid material. Your mileage may vary with you being one of those whose reputation may not be of concern (which seems obvious by some posts and forums out there) but, it should be remembered that to many people it does matter greatly. *rant over*

Brian King

 

[azmyth]

you ever been to the better business bureau?

unfortunately there is nothing like that for deciding whether martial arts schools are legit or not.

I don't think we said anything that terrible that it would cause such a stir. I never said I didn't respect the guy. He's good at what he knows. I just question the means in which he says he got the knowledge, the way he passes it off to others, and various other things. When you start a business, and you go public with it, your the one opening yourself up for comments both positive or negative. Its the consumer's job to point out to other potential customers what they thought about the "product". Ever been to a online website and looked at reviews for products? Surely someone has given a bad review at some point. I'm fairly sure the maker of that product simply ignores the bad review and keeps on keeping on. If potential buyers want the product they sell bad enough, they will pay for it regardless of what someone else says.

I don't have a problem with either instructor as people. We both thought that buy explaining the issues here, maybe we could get some insight from fellow martial artists who may have had to deal with the same issue. what school or instructor it pertains to is irrelevant. I'm sure there are some people out there who take Ashida Kim very seriously, but noone has any problems blasting his name into the ground. I don't think we said anything out of the way. It was straight to the point facts that we saw while we were there.

Thanks for the reply. But, if there are issues that arise over some silly forum post then I def. don't want to be at that school. To be honest.. I think this whole "bash the instructor" mentality was instilled in the hybrid school.. because every class seemed to be "bash the martial art we don't do" or "bash the instructor because they don't do things my way".

I see your points, but we had to get in the open. Its like keeping something inside, and needing to get it out to someone. This forum is for martial arts discussion. We are discussing issues with martial arts.

nothing wrong with that..

I think this place is great. I think we should just let this go, we've already made our decision. wish us the best! and we will do you the same.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Pardons for the * mini rant* following. Speaking as somebody that takes his personal and business reputation seriously I think that this thread and its related thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58408 should be required reading for people new to online posting and as a reminder to those that post often. Both threads started out disrespecting former instructors and calling the instructors character into question only to turn it around later in this thread and say they are good guys. Those instructors will see these threads or be told about them sooner or later. Perspective students and students belonging to both schools will read these threads, and the instructor’s peers may read these threads. These threads and the words written may last forever. These threads may affect the livelihood of the instructors and their reputations and the reputation of the posters as well. People really need to think twice before hitting the send key. Is what is written really what they want to say and have out there forever? Saying I was/am young, I didn’t mean it, communicating with the written word and getting across ideas and meanings is difficult or I was only joking; in my opinion none of these are acceptable excuses for putting out damaging and/or stupid material. Your mileage may vary with you being one of those whose reputation may not be of concern (which seems obvious by some posts and forums out there) but, it should be remembered that to many people it does matter greatly. *rant over*

Brian King

Well said :asian:

I think we should just let this go, we've already made our decision.

Yes you should and yes you have.