Question on martial artists

[Deleted member 34973]

I'll recant somewhat, A Martial Arts hobbyist (in training)...is an acceptable martial artist.

It quits being a hobby, once it is used for reality.

 

[Mitlov]

I'll recant, A Martial Arts hobbyist (in training)...is an acceptable martial artist.

It quits being a hobby, once it is used for reality.

If someone swims three times a week as their main form of recreation and exercise, and one day they're on a sinking boat and being a good swimmer saves their life, is it no longer their "hobby" the next time they swim laps at the YMCA? Do you call them a "swimming hobbyist" before the boat incident and only call them a "swimmer" after the boat incident?

This whole thread is full of no-true-Scotsman fallacies.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When in your opinion, can someone call themselves a martial artist?

As long as MA is an important part of your daily life. If you run daily, will you call yourself a runner?

 

[geezer]

I'll recant somewhat, A Martial Arts hobbyist (in training)...is an acceptable martial artist.

It quits being a hobby, once it is used for reality.

How's that? A beginner, or a person with no formal training at all can be attacked and, by luck or by pluck, may successfully defend themselves. Are they now suddenly "martial artists"?

After several years of serious training, an old kung-fu si-dai (younger brother) of mine was attacked and murdered. Was he not a martial artist because he was killed?

I teach that "self defense" is first and foremost about awareness and avoidance, and failing that, then about de-escalation and escape. If you you end up having to engage in physical violence, you've basically messed up already, even if you "win" (i.e. survive). By these criteria, a true martial artist may well avoid having to use his "art" at all outside of the dojo, dojang, kwoon, or gym. In your world that makes him somehow less...?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

If someone swims three times a week as their main form of recreation and exercise, and one day they're on a sinking boat and being a good swimmer saves their life, is it no longer their "hobby" the next time they swim laps at the YMCA? Do you call them a "swimming hobbyist" before the boat incident and only call them a "swimmer" after the boat incident?

This whole thread is full of no-true-Scotsman fallacies.

Somehow, I don't think they will call it a hobby anymore. As a matter of fact, reality will set in and they will probably focus more on it or never go back into the water.

Again, it is just an opinion you do not always need to be right.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

It is training, until the act is actually being performed, you are training for it. Until the threshold has been crossed, you are simply training for it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You may

- call yourself a scientist, if you have a PhD degree in science.
- not call yourself a scientist, if you have only graduated from high school.

Whether you can call yourself a scientist with only a BA degree, it's debatable. But most people won't use that term.

 

[Flying Crane]

You know what, I took back my disagree. I still disagree, but to a lesser extent. I don't think you have to have used it, but I think you have to be competent enough to use it in a real situation.

As a point of story - my Mom, a white belt in Hapkido, went to visit her family in another state. My cousin is a police officer, and she wanted to show him what she learned in Hapkido. But he's not the type of person who is like "show me what you learned, that's really cool." He's more the chest-thumping point-and-grunt type of a guy. So he wanted to show how he was better than her, even though he's twice her size. She wasn't able to make the techniques work.

I share this story, because while I may consider her a Martial Artist because she's training an art, she wasn't ready to demonstrate the technique on a resisting opponent. She wasn't at that skill level yet. And it's not any indictment on her or the training. She simply wasn't there yet. At that point in time, she would not have been capable of using the martial arts in a realistic setting. With more training and experience, she will be.

So like I said earlier: context. In my opinion, and in class, I would call her a martial artist. But if she wanted to prove her hapkido skills to someone outside of the school, I'd caution her against it, because she's not there yet.

Well, she was not able to execute against someone twice her size, who knew exactly what she was going to do. When uke knows what is coming, it is easy to resist in a way that makes it impossible to execute, even if the fellow is very skilled.

“Here, let me show you this nifty wrist-release technique, grab my wrist”. Ok, I know you are gonna do something to break my grip, that is the setup and that is plenty for me, under that controlled situation, to smother the attempts.

That does not mean your mother could not have executed against someone who had no idea she knew the technique, if she had a need to. It just means that someone twice her size, who knew that in a manufactured situation “something” was coming, could prevent her from being successful.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

How's that? A beginner, or a person with no formal training at all can be attacked and, by luck or by pluck, may successfully defend themselves. Are they now suddenly "martial artists"?

After several years of serious training, an old kung-fu si-dai (younger brother) of mine was attacked and murdered. Was he not a martial artist because he was killed?

I teach that "self defense" is first and foremost about awareness and avoidance, and failing that, then about de-escalation and escape. If you you end up having to engage in physical violence, you've basically messed up already, even if you "win" (i.e. survive). By these criteria, a true martial artist may well avoid having to use his "art" at all outside of the dojo, dojang, kwoon, or gym. In your world that makes him somehow less...?

Not sure if I ever agreed with that definition of what a true martial artist is, that puts it as a philosophy or a religious view.

You can avoid confrontations and learn how to do so, without any martial Arts training.

I think folks rely to much on the goodness of other people with that philosophical view.

 

[Buka]

On my marriage license and several early tax filings my occupation is listed as a Karate Instructor, on numerous other income tax filings my occupation is listed a Martial Artist or Martial Arts Instructor. On all of my Law Enforcement paperwork from departments in several states all my previous experiences are listed likewise.

On paper work from Emergency Room treatments my occupation was listed as above.

You know what that makes me? It makes me old and really fricken' tired.

 

[skribs]

Well, she was not able to execute against someone twice her size, who knew exactly what she was going to do. When uke knows what is coming, it is easy to resist in a way that makes it impossible to execute, even if the fellow is very skilled.

“Here, let me show you this nifty wrist-release technique, grab my wrist”. Ok, I know you are gonna do something to break my grip, that is the setup and that is plenty for me, under that controlled situation, to smother the attempts.

That does not mean your mother could not have executed against someone who had no idea she knew the technique, if she had a need to. It just means that someone twice her size, who knew that in a manufactured situation “something” was coming, could prevent her from being successful.

As her classmate, I could tell you she wasn't ready for a suspecting or unsuspecting uke.

 

[Flying Crane]

As her classmate, I could tell you she wasn't ready for a suspecting or unsuspecting uke.

Fair enough, but the fact that your cousin smothered her efforts is not what makes it true.

 

[dvcochran]

This going to upset a few....

IMO...it is when you have used it effectively, to save your own life. Until then, you are still just practicing the martial Arts.

It is like asking, when can you call yourself a surgeon, is it when you are studying about operations or when you are applying what you learned, on a real patient.

I think what you are describing is something totally different. It MAY be a by-product of learning a martial art but it is not the art or the aggregate of artist.
A surgeon learns their craft with the specific intent of repeatedly performing these tasks day in a & day out. A martial artist practices specific tasks/skills with the intent or ability to perform those tasks/skills IF/WHEN they need them. The hope of any rational person is that they will not. This is a conundrum that is hard to wrap your head around.
An exception to this is in the sport side of MA.
In another vein, I believe I use some of the elements I have learned in the martial arts every day. Mostly in the mental component, but I know there are qualities I have learned from MA that have greatly helped me without ever laying a hand on the other person. Depending on the type of work you do that is a very, very big deal.
So, has MA saved my life? No, not directly. Has it changed my life for the better? Most definitely.

To the OP @Gweilo 's question, I feel it is a dis-service to call a person a martial artist as soon as they sign up for classes. They are a student of a martial art, just like a new college student does not yet hold a degree. A person signs up for dance classes but cannot perform a ballet on day one. I find it hard to put a blanket timeframe on the answer for every person.

 

[Gweilo]

To the OP @Gweilo 's question, I feel it is a dis-service to call a person a martial artist as soon as they sign up for classes.

This is the point I was looking for, it's a question that seems to have come up quite regularly just recently, TV programs, on the net, even a bloke I met in a motorway service station, it was busy, and as strangers, we just by pure chance had to share a table, during our conversation, he made claim, he was a martial artist, as the conversation went on, it turns out, he had done Judo for a couple of months, left, and in the past few months had been training BJJ, I never mentioned my own experiences, but driving to my destination, pondered on this question, is a martial artist, purely someone who attends a club, is it someone who has acheived a certificate, to say they have an acheivment in an art, was I just being picky, because I have trained for 35 years, albeit in 3 arts. Personally, I usually let people's discription of themselves fly, but I just thought this bloke, had a bit of cheek, discribing himself as a martial artist.

 

[jobo]

ethat.



You can say you do the hobby, but you can't say that is what you are.

I play guitar, (hobby) but "I am" not a guitarist.

why not, I play chess, I'm most certainly a chess 0layer !I'd ride a bike so I'm a cyclist I play guitar so I'm a guitarist . you seem to be using your own dictionary here

 

[Gweilo]

why not, I play chess, I'm most certainly a chess 0layer !I'd ride a bike so I'm a cyclist I play guitar so I'm a guitarist . you seem to be using your own dictionary here

Lol, well ain't that a cheek, you accusing someone else of using their own dictionary, you play chess, you ride a bike, you play the guitar, but do you need to be any good at these things to call yourself a guitarist, or is it in the spirit of, I could call myself a philosopher, because I think a lot.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

why not, I play chess, I'm most certainly a chess 0layer !I'd ride a bike so I'm a cyclist I play guitar so I'm a guitarist . you seem to be using your own dictionary here[/QUOT

Already yielded to this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When they do martial arts

This is a perfectly vague answer - in that a vague answer is perfect for this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This going to upset a few....

IMO...it is when you have used it effectively, to save your own life. Until then, you are still just practicing the martial Arts.

It is like asking, when can you call yourself a surgeon, is it when you are studying about operations or when you are applying what you learned, on a real patient.

Define "used" and "effectively". And does it have to be in defense of actual loss of life, or can it be a lesser attack? Does a surgeon only become a surgeon when they have saved a life?

And I point those points out in all seriousness, because there's a wide range of interpretations to those terms.

I'd disagree at the very least because your qualification would leave out literally everyone who has skills they've proven in sport combat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but a surgeon is an occupation and one with a very specifically defined qualification / experience, your a surgeon when you are qualified to undertake surgury

a closer analogy, would be when can you call your self a motorcyclist, the answer to which h would seem to be when you can ride a motorcycle, some would insist you need to also own one, people with big bikes will require that you cant be a " biker" if you only own a small bike, people who do 20' 000 miles a year wont consider you a real biker till you do a high mileage in all weathers and people who have been riding for 10 plus years wont consider you a biker till you have a decade or two experiance,some wont think so to ayou have had a least 5 crashes nd some will require you have all of the above coz that's what they have

so just like ma it's a nebula concept that has no meaning at all but what ever you decided is the thing you have that makes you a biker or a ma that you then inflict on others in order to be judgemental

Spot on.