Question about the Godai

[Brian R. VanCise]

Malcolm,

I am sorry if I mixed you up with someone else on Kutaki who was acting the same way you are on this thread.

When Kizaru just asked you to prove your worth for an explanation of anything that was a pretty poignant question! At this point I am inclined to think that you are not really worth wasting time explaining how we do things in Budo Taijutsu. You seem to be fishing for something to help you justify a wrongfully preconceived notion and to find something to needle the Bujinkan. People who I respect and who are very knowledgeable on the subject have told you what you needed to know and yet you continue on. You are choosing to ignore the truth.

 

[Cryozombie]

Again with the ad hominems, I see.

Seems to be all your pathetically tiny mind can comprehend.

 

[eyebeams]

Seems to be all your pathetically tiny mind can comprehend.

It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.

 

[eyebeams]

Not everyone in the Bujinkan lets their lack on knowledge about the subject matter get in the way of them pontificating as if they were an expert.

If they are not people who were around for a long, long time and possibly read some books by Hayes, I really don't put too much importance on what they say, especially since you won't give their names.

Fortunately, the importance you place upon things is not a guiding principle for anyone else. As some of these folks are still Bujinkan members, I'd rather not give their names.

And speaking of people that talk like experts, could you tell us what you think the word newashi means. :lfao:

That would depend on the spelling, Don, though one of those definitions is extremely amusing in light of this discussion.

 

[eyebeams]

If you don't take them at their word, why bother telling us?

Because I'm not taking *anyone* entirely at their word.

Prove you're worth the time for an explanation.

What are you afraid of?

 

[eyebeams]

Malcolm,

I am sorry if I mixed you up with someone else on Kutaki who was acting the same way you are on this thread.

When Kizaru just asked you to prove your worth for an explanation of anything that was a pretty poignant question!

Not especially. Questions like that are contrary to the idea of free exchange -- and that's an important principle in such things.

As I've said repeatedly, the free exchange between intellectuals is not one of the traditional values of budo. This means that the ways in which budo creates stories about itself are not compatible with actually learning the truth of those stories.

At this point I am inclined to think that you are not really worth wasting time explaining how we do things in Budo Taijutsu. You seem to be fishing for something to help you justify a wrongfully preconceived notion and to find something to needle the Bujinkan. People who I respect and who are very knowledgeable on the subject have told you what you needed to know and yet you continue on. You are choosing to ignore the truth.

It is interesting that you've formed opinions about everything from my agenda to who I "really am" (though mistakenly) because of what other people have told you.

You're better off asking the same questions (this includes asking them of the kind of people Don Roley "doesn't place importance on," -- though he sure as hell dogs those people wherever they arise -- and asking *yourself* about the biases in your methods) as I am and coming to your own conclusions. Doing what you're told is fine in a training hierarchy, but it's not for this.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are. You have been proven to know very little about budo taijutsu on this thread. You are fishing for whatever it is I do not know nor do I care. I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings. Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that) You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident) Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.

 

[eyebeams]

Just a general comment:

Reviewing this thread, it seems that on the balance, I have been the one providing external references to what I am talking about. I have also repeatedly expressed a feeling of respect and understanding for the Bujinkan's traditions -- even its eccentricities.

Here's what the core issues are:

1) The uses of the godai and other schemes in the Bujinkan. This is not Hayes godai; assuming I mean this is a strawman.

2) There are multiple references to such schemes in sources that emanate from Hatsumi himself, right to the Bujinkan. One of these is a counting system. One of them is a system of divisions in Amatsu medicine. One of them is an analogy used to explain the relationship between consciousness and space in juppo sessho. There are others that are more controversial. I am interested in the significance of these references, but it is not controversal that the ones I mentioned actually exist.

3) There are strong implications of such systems within the Takamatsuden in general. This comes from references in the Genbukan and a strong suggestion that Takamatsu himself made such references.

These references and where they fit within the structure of Takamatsu's descendant teachings if the focus of my interest -- not whether or not it's just a system of counting or kata with "feeling." Those are both positions that don't line up with the facts, but aside from those, there's certainly a lot of room for interpretation.

Since there appears to be some confusion, let's list what this is not about. To wit:

1) I don't care about your organizational politics except in situations where they prove a hindrance -- and they do indeed. It's your choice to stand by your position and have your loyalties, but that choice does not compel anyone else.

2) I don't really care who you believe has ultimate authority in such and such a context. These are questions about budo, not budo-style questions. There is no definite appeal to authority for a right answer -- just answers that are analyzed based on completeness or consistency.

3) I'm not a member of your organizations, an organization you don't like or anything like that.

 

[eyebeams]

Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are. You have been proven to know very little about budo taijutsu on this thread. You are fishing for whatever it is I do not know nor do I care. I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings. Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that) You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident) Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.

You need to decide what your position is. Either you have an opinion because of what you made a decision as an individual or you have one because of what other people tell you. You need to either decide this is utterly unimportant or resolve it within your own mind using an honest intellectual method. You need to either justify your statements or reject them. You need you "set your gut," to use a reference some people may understand.

Your sense of discomfort is your to resolve -- and it's ultimately not my problem. That's the chief barrier here: Many assume that because they follow a certain kind of propriety, others are bound to. Reactions like this do pit the lie to the notion that the Bujinkan is not a "traditional" budo group -- for better or for worse, this is as traditional as it gets.

 

[jks9199]

Not especially. Questions like that are contrary to the idea of free exchange -- and that's an important principle in such things.

As I've said repeatedly, the free exchange between intellectuals is not one of the traditional values of budo. This means that the ways in which budo creates stories about itself are not compatible with actually learning the truth of those stories.



It is interesting that you've formed opinions about everything from my agenda to who I "really am" (though mistakenly) because of what other people have told you.

You're better off asking the same questions (this includes asking them of the kind of people Don Roley "doesn't place importance on," -- though he sure as hell dogs those people wherever they arise -- and asking *yourself* about the biases in your methods) as I am and coming to your own conclusions. Doing what you're told is fine in a training hierarchy, but it's not for this.

At this point -- from an outsider's view -- you seem to be looking to disagree or hunting for arguments and you seem to have decided that anyone who doesn't say what you want them to and doesn't think the same way that you do is part of some sort of conspiracy/plot/scheme to deny the "real knowledge." You look around for Illumanati, too?

Eyebeams, Malcom or however you really are. You have been proven to know very little about budo taijutsu on this thread. You are fishing for whatever it is I do not know nor do I care. I formed my opinions on you based on your own writings. Needless to say I am done responding to you it is simply just not worth it. (my time is more valuable than that) You are not here in the pursuit of knowledge or intellectual exchange. (that much is evident) Enjoy whatever little game you are playing.

I have to agree; I don't know why the same people that took the time to answer my question with courtesy and politeness are still dealing with Eyebeams. (Y'know... for the Christians, a scripture passage just came to mind as I typed his name...)

 

[Cryozombie]

It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.

No, I just understand there is no argument. We all know the facts, you refuse to see them, so now, the only thing left to say is what a moron you are.

My mom always said if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, but I figure, what the ****, she's dead, so its not like she can yell at me anymore.

So... yeah.

You = Ignorant of the subject matter.

 

[Kizaru]

It seems more likely that your ability to support your position with a real argument has just run out of steam. That's usually the cause of personal attacks.

Hmm...Intersting point.

Prove you're worth the time for an explanation.

What are you afraid of?

Thank you for answering my question.

Clearly, your response demonstrates your inability to prove there is any merit in continuing to assist you in finding the information you seek. At the same time, your meek attempt at instigation is amusing at best.

In light of your having resorted to personal attack, by your own assertion, it would seem that your arguement has run out of steam...

As an aside, "eyebeams", please don't fool yourself into thinking my response proves you're worth my (or anyone else's) time; it's not written for your edification, it's written for the benefit of the others on this board.

 

[Kizaru]

No, I just understand there is no argument. We all know the facts, you refuse to see them, so now, the only thing left to say is what a moron you are.

Excellent point; quite enlightening.

My mom always said if you cant say anything nice, dont say anything at all, but I figure, what the ****, she's dead, so its not like she can yell at me anymore.

While I'm sure all here are compassionate towards your mother's condition; I would like to add that your clarity of perspective on this point is summarliy erudite.

You = Ignorant of the subject matter.

The depth of axiomatic truth you have been able to extract from this dialogue is exemplary.

 

[Lisa]

Thread locked pending admin review.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator