Question about the Evolution of TKD.

[SFC JeffJ]

Like I've said before, I'm not a TDK practitioner. My wife however has been for about the past 25 years. The dojo she went to, and still goes to as well as teaching at her own school, teaches only the Ch'ang Hon forms. From what I'm reading here, that's an oddity. Is that true? If so, why is that?

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[terryl965]

Ch'ang Hon forms, those forms was developed for the folks that do ITF styles as I understand, we teach both ITF and Tae Gueks which is Kukkiwon and yes for a tidbit we throw in the Palgwes as well for those that wish to learn them.
Terry

 

[IcemanSK]

Like I've said before, I'm not a TDK practitioner. My wife however has been for about the past 25 years. The dojo she went to, and still goes to as well as teaching at her own school, teaches only the Ch'ang Hon forms. From what I'm reading here, that's an oddity. Is that true? If so, why is that?

Thanks,

Jeff

I don't think I'd call it an oddity, but a rarity, yes. The Chang Hon forms are done mainly by the folks who'd TKD lineage can be traced to General Choi, Hong Hi who forms the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. I''m a bit sketchy on the details of the history, so I'll leave it to others. But I do know that ITF style TKD was never as popular in the US as it is abroad. I spoke to a high ranking ITF instructor recently who guessed there were maybe 10,000 practioners in the US. I will say this, its a good style of TKD. I trained in that style for a number of years. I loved the forms.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Just from looking at them, the Chang Hon forms seems much closer to the Shotokan forms that Gen. Choi originaly did himself. Maybe that's a reason for the change?

Jeff

 

[MSUTKD]

Actually, the WTF - Palgwe, Taeguek and Yudanja (black belt) forms are more closely related the Shotokan forms. In fact, many techniques and even sequences are taken directly from these forms.

ron

 

[rmclain]

It makes sense that Choi's 1950 Chong Hon forms (ITF) and the forms created by the KTA/WTF resemble karate. Like Choi Hong Hi the KTA/WTF people that created them (Palgue, Yudansha forms) were originally karate students.

The Chong Hon forms: You can find sequences in these that come directly from the Pyung Ahn (Heian) forms that Choi studied in Japan.

R. McLain

 

[IcemanSK]

There are several good threads on the ITF & General Choi here. This looked liked a good one. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23825&highlight=History+ITF

Hope it helps.

 

[Last Fearner]

Like I've said before, I'm not a TDK practitioner. My wife however has been for about the past 25 years. The dojo she went to, and still goes to as well as teaching at her own school, teaches only the Ch'ang Hon forms. From what I'm reading here, that's an oddity. Is that true? If so, why is that?

Thanks,

Jeff

Jeff,

As to the "oddity" or "rarity" of the Chang Hon forms, I believe this is mostly due to political organizations, and a desire of different Kwans (branches of Taekwondo schools), to establish their own identity, separate from the direct connection to General Choi Hong Hi, his Oh Do Kwan of the past, and the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF).

While historical events are somewhat clouded in opinions, personal agendas, misinformation, and a general misunderstanding of what happened, and why, some of the important details should suffice for an answer to your question.

When the re-emergence of Korean culture occured in 1945, after the end of WWII, and the Japanese control of the Korean peninsula, the various Kwans that were established had little Korean history of their own. General Choi, having studied Japanese Karate in Japan, borrowed the concept of "Kata" (prearranged forms) to put together his own system of forms which he labeled the "Chang Hon" school (Gen. Choi's pseudonym meaning "Blue Cottage"). Since this system of forms was one of the few that was distinctly made for "Taekwon-do," even though it was based on Karate Kata, the Chang Hon forms became very popular and widely used in the 1960's and 70's.

When I first began training in Taekwondo in 1976, it was with the ATA (American Taekwondo Association). At that time, Grandmaster Haeng Ung Lee was the founder of the ATA, but had remained under the direction of another Korean Grandmaster who was the President, and GM Lee was an 8th Dan, and the Vice President. Both of them had a relationship with General Choi, even though they were not a part of the ITF. In the late 1970's a powerful Korean Grandmaster Kim of South Bend, IN died of throat cancer, and the entire political structure of Taekwondo shifted. GM Lee took over the ATA as president.

By the early 1980s, GM Lee of the ATA called his top ranks together, and they created the Song Ahm forms to replace the Chang Hon forms. In the 1980's, and 90's, I spent fifteen years training with a Jidokwan school who used the Pal-gwe forms. In the late 80's they began the switch over to the Taegeuk forms because of the future of Taekwondo in the Olympics, and the WTF approved forms. The U.S. Chung Do Kwan, under the direction of GM Ed Sell, has always favored the Chang Hon forms, but in the past decade have begun to make the shift to the Taegeuk forms as well.

It seems that the Chang Hon forms are become less practiced by those who are not directly affiliated with the ITF. Although they are wonderful forms, and the first ones I learned, they do have the stigma of being a product of General Choi, and closely related to the Karate Kata (stigma only to those who don't want that connection). I have learned all of the Pal-gwe, then had to learn the Taegeuk.

I believe that the concept of form practice in general might have a "borrowed stigma" but the Taegeuk techniques are really as basic of Korean Martial Art striking as you can get. Any similarity to Japanese forms is, in my opinion, a natural phenomenon based on the fact that a strike is a strike, and a kick is a kick, and forms are going to be similar no matter what. Personally, I believe that any forms anyone could possibly create, if they displayed basic skills of blocking, punching, and kicking, could be unjustly connected to Japanese karate Kata, simply because there similar in nature. Genral Choi's forms, on the other hand, were likely based on his personal experience in Karate, but that too is a comparrison of structure, more than a lineage of origin.

CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[rmclain]

Jeff,

As to the "oddity" or "rarity" of the Chang Hon forms, I believe this is mostly due to political organizations, and a desire of different Kwans (branches of Taekwondo schools), to establish their own identity, separate from the direct connection to General Choi Hong Hi, his Oh Do Kwan of the past, and the International Taekwondo Federation (ITF).
CM D. J. Eisenhart

Yes, I think this was the case as well. But, I think it was a KTA/WTF political move to make forms and an identity away from Choi Hong Hi, as well as get others schools to move away from any 'Kwan" affiliation. In fact, they (KTA) had the kwans stop using their names entirely and instead use, "roll call #1, roll call #2, etc."

I don't believe the kwans older than the Oh Do Kwan (Choi's original school in Korea) had any care to move away from him - or any concern about him except for concern for his push to organize all schools under the banner of "Taekwon Do." Already the kwans had their own forms and tradition - with the founders of these kwans being senior in rank to Choi.

It was explained to me by an old-days (1951) student of the Chang Moo Kwan that you could look at someone practicing in the old days and tell which kwan they were from by the way they looked while training. It would be difficult to do that nowadays. Seems that a school claiming an old kwan name is still the same as any WTF school down the road - with the exception of Moo Duk Won.

It does seem that there are many more WTF-affiliated schools around than the ITF.

R. McLain

 

[Marginal]

Genral Choi's forms, on the other hand, were likely based on his personal experience in Karate, but that too is a comparrison of structure, more than a lineage of origin.

This probably goes without saying, but Gen Choi didn't develop the bulk of the Chang Hon forms by himself. Most were created by various people and groups. Gen Choi mainly took credit for establishing the rules by which they were designed, and had final approval.

As to why one's more popular, the answer to that's easy. Olympics.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thanks for all the info. Very enlightening. As an aside, Master Kim, from South Bend IN, was my wifes instructors instructor. An excellent teacher from what I've heard, and an all around impressive martial artist.

Thanks again

Jeff

 

[IcemanSK]

This probably goes without saying, but Gen Choi didn't develop the bulk of the Chang Hon forms by himself. Most were created by various people and groups. Gen Choi mainly took credit for establishing the rules by which they were designed, and had final approval.

As to why one's more popular, the answer to that's easy. Olympics.

I would argue that because WTF was backed by the Korean government, it, rather than ITF style, was accepted by the Olympic committee. Politics & who your friends are had a lot to do with getting it to where it is.

 

[Miles]

In the late 80's they began the switch over to the Taegeuk forms because of the future of Taekwondo in the Olympics, and the WTF approved forms. The U.S. Chung Do Kwan, under the direction of GM Ed Sell, has always favored the Chang Hon forms, but in the past decade have begun to make the shift to the Taegeuk forms as well.

Sort of off topic, but not too much: Last Fearner, you mentioned GM Sell favored the Chang Hon tul. I have never heard that before. It's not off topic as GM Sell is an American TKD pioneer and his teachings and students have impacted many American Taekwondoin.

Miles

 

[Marginal]

I would argue that because WTF was backed by the Korean government, it, rather than ITF style, was accepted by the Olympic committee. Politics & who your friends are had a lot to do with getting it to where it is.

I'm not really sure that it makes a difference. The IOC dictated the ruleset, so the invigorating purely Korean national sport that's been around for thousands of years wasn't really brought about by the old Korean traditions, or the millitary dictatorship's will.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I'm not really sure that it makes a difference. The IOC dictated the ruleset, so the invigorating purely Korean national sport that's been around for thousands of years wasn't really brought about by the old Korean traditions, or the millitary dictatorship's will.

While I see your point, I do believe that the IOC was looking for the "most official" looking TKD it could get and figured that South Korea's officially sanctioned group was it.

You are very much right, IMO, that it was TKD practitioners throughout the world, the U.S. in particular, that set the ball in motion for Olympic TKD acceptance.