Question about knife hands

[frank raud]

I have never had someone grab my thumb, but then again, I don't stick mine out, as I've been trained to keep it tucked in. So I can't say how likely it is that someone would or could grab it.

To be honest, I am more concerned that I'd jam it when striking by catching it on clothes or what-have-you. Seems best to just keep it out of the way. I won't claim I have any valuable knowledge one way or another; this is just what I do.

If people never attempt to grab your shuto, I can't see why they would suddenly be attracted to grabbing a thumb. I agree, tucked in, keeps it out of the way and helps keep the hand rigid. The reason it is flagged is actually to keep the hand relaxed. Difference of opinion, and technique.

 

[dvcochran]

Knife hands....they always give me a hmmmmm moment. I teach them as part of a full curriculum, but I've never actually used one outside the dojo. Neither has anyone else I know.....which is a whole lot of Martial Arts guys - many of whom are from different styles and are also in protective services.

So....I don't know that if I was starting over I'd teach them again. I dunno'.

We have always taught them as a soft target strike.

 

[dvcochran]

If the palm is up (classic chop) we describe it as more of an outside to inside motion and there is not a great deal of elbow in the motion. It the palm is down, so that the arm motion is coming across your body there should be more of a "whipping" motion from the elbow. Which to use depends on position relative to target. That is how we teach them anyway.
When doing a classic chop do you use more of the lower edge or the palm? It always feel stronger and more solid to me.

 

[drop bear]

If people never attempt to grab your shuto, I can't see why they would suddenly be attracted to grabbing a thumb. I agree, tucked in, keeps it out of the way and helps keep the hand rigid. The reason it is flagged is actually to keep the hand relaxed. Difference of opinion, and technique.

Poke yourself in the eye.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A side note to the purpose of a knife hand. That i have been taught. Not using it as a strike directly, but almost as a throw. Instead of requiring a grip, you get the 'strike' in and your hand is already positioned and with appropriate momentum to conduct a number of throws. The person who taught me that, and his students, have succesfully done this to me on a pretty regular basis in sparring.

This is why we (NGA) prefer a shuto/knife hand block over a closed hand block most of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hammer fist, framing and clinching a all expressions of the judo chop concept.

Agreed. I see a lot of similar concepts in these, and in several blocks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bill, I have often heard this explanation, but am curious. How often does someone grab, or attempt to grab, your shuto?

I'd consider it more a risk of getting snagged (on clothing flailing arms, etc.) in the chaos.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the palm is up (classic chop) we describe it as more of an outside to inside motion and there is not a great deal of elbow in the motion. It the palm is down, so that the arm motion is coming across your body there should be more of a "whipping" motion from the elbow. Which to use depends on position relative to target. That is how we teach them anyway.
When doing a classic chop do you use more of the lower edge or the palm? It always feel stronger and more solid to me.

I teach a whipping motion for both, though it's more pronounced for a palm-down strike. Our aiming surface is nominally the same for both, though that varies somewhat by target, and the range of options differs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Poke yourself in the eye.

Was that an instruction?

 

[dvcochran]

I'd consider it more a risk of getting snagged (on clothing flailing arms, etc.) in the chaos.

I have dislocated my left thumb twice because my thumb was out. First time was a sleeve, the second time was a weird collision with an on coming punch. They happened about a year apart. For a coupe years after it would easily pop out sticking straight down and I could wrangle it back in surprisingly easy. It finally strengthened up enough to stop popping out. It was also broken once so it looks terrible and the knuckle joint doesn't move very well I think because the tendons around the lower joint are messed up. Being left handed I can notice it in my grip at times.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have dislocated my left thumb twice because my thumb was out. First time was a sleeve, the second time was a weird collision with an on coming punch. They happened about a year apart. For a coupe years after it would easily pop out sticking straight down and I could wrangle it back in surprisingly easy. It finally strengthened up enough to stop popping out. It was also broken once so it looks terrible and the knuckle joint doesn't move very well I think because the tendons around the lower joint are messed up. Being left handed I can notice it in my grip at times.

I dislocated my right thumb (also my dominant hand) in a friend's black belt test when I was put on the ground and tried to grab his ankle. Marc picked that moment to kick the other guy, and my thumb decided to try to save him. Fortunately, it has mostly healed, though I do sometimes get arthritic flare-ups at the base of that thumb, and it still doesn't bend to the same angle as the left thumb, while it used to bend slightly further.