Qigong and Taiji

[chi-ca]

I've been thinking of studying qigong in addition to taiji and am wondering how many of you have done this and if you think it's very helpful. Did your taiji skills benefit from studying qigong or did you find that qigong is interesting but separate?

 

[pete]

yes, your level of tai chi will improve through a qigong practice, and no it cannot be kept separate from tai chi... tai chi is based on taoist philosophy of a oneness with everything, so you really can't separate anything from your tai chi!

that being said, there are many types of qigong (or ch'i kung), of which you should discuss with your tai chi instructor to find which may be best suited for you and complimentary with your particular style of tai chi.

pete

 

[7starmantis]

I've practiced both for quite a while now...they deffinitely lend themselves to each other well.

7sm

 

[chi-ca]

Since I have never looked into qigong (other than reading books about it) I'm not sure what I should look for in a school/teacher. Is this usually taught in a large group? Do either of you have any suggestions for finding a reputable instructor or for things I should try to avoid?

Chi-ca

 

[7starmantis]

I really dont know what to tell you about that. We dont have a specific class, my sifu just teaches some of us who are really serious and getting more advanced. I would say look for the same things in an instructor that you would for tai chi. In fact, a good tai chi instructor might just also be a good qigong teacher as well.

7sm

 

[East Winds]

Chi-Ca

Yes the others are quite right. The two cannot be separated. One aspect of Qigong that will certainly benefit your taiji, is that it introduces the concept of breathing. This can be a difficult subject when you first start Taiji. There are literaly hundreds of Qigong forms, both static and moving. One of the best is Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) or Standing Post, or the martial aspect of the exercise I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). Most Taiji teachers will incorporate some Qigong into their classes. Only rarely will you find a teacher only teaching Qigong.

Good luck with your search

regards

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Some good advice above. IMO particulary while a beginner, I prefer to both teach and learn in a one on one ( 3 - 6 absolute max ) capacity ( to see and correct each and every full movement or have each and every of my own seen and corrected. The extra attention pays off in application and hand, fist, foot position, posture and lyric correction that you'd likely be allowed to get away with when in a group.

If you can't find an actual one one situation, it might be worth approaching an instructor you know offers qigong and speak to them about even a few hour sessions privately a week. Alot of practioners play early of a morning anyway, and usually don't mind the company.

If you're interested in qigong, I also recommend a google search and some reading. What country / state and area are you in and what sort of qigong are you after , or for what purpose??? Maybe someone can give you a recommendation or contact for a teacher or school.

Blooming Lotus

 

[chi-ca]

..."One of the best is Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) or Standing Post, or the martial aspect of the exercise I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan)..."


Thanks East Winds,
I'm wondering what it is about Zhan Zhuang and I-Chuan that makes you prefer them over other forms of qigong?

Chi-ca

 

[chi-ca]

Blooming Lotus,
I agree that a small class is beneficial and I feel very fortunate to have only a few other students in mine. I live in the U.S., near Washington, DC, and Pete was nice enough to give me a few suggestions for teachers who hold qigong seminars in this area (though if anyone else knows of a regular class I'd be happy to hear about it). You mentioned reading; can you recommend any particularly good books?
Chi-ca

 

[still learning]

Hello, I like Qiqong for what is does. Only way to know is try it. Each person will form their own opinon. There are so many different kinds of Tai chi as there is Chi' Kung'......Aloha

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Blooming Lotus,
I agree that a small class is beneficial and I feel very fortunate to have only a few other students in mine. I live in the U.S., near Washington, DC, and Pete was nice enough to give me a few suggestions for teachers who hold qigong seminars in this area (though if anyone else knows of a regular class I'd be happy to hear about it). You mentioned reading; can you recommend any particularly good books?
Chi-ca

meiwenti. No problem. www.martialartsmart.com has some great titles and you can order a catalogue sent to your email account, or if you get hold of a copy kungfu taichi magazine, they also have a huge list of extremely well reputed everything including some great books. ( check out their shaolin qigong masters range !! a qigong title for every purpose ) . Amazon ( www.amazon.com ) is another good one but there are far too many titles to list. If you find something that catches your interest, please feel free to see if anyone else here has read or heard of it. Good books etc, usually have a habit of some rep or other.


What about taijis chi moving , storing and cultivation theories ?? Have you read much about that?? And a look at some meridian charts wouldn't hurt either. In fact there's another thread around here that I posted a link to some charts etc on. Maybe thread called "pressure points ......." or chin na??? Can only serve your art better so feel free to browse around and get back to us if you have any questions.

Cheers

Blooming Lotus

btw : to try it, and understand what it is you're doing , aren't always the same thing. A little reading is a great thing.

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Okay, so I picked up a copy of kungfu taichi magazine today and there is a title I can give you that is likely really well suited to your question. It's called " qigong empower ment " and it's written by Master Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching wu. It costs $34.95 US$ and isa available at www.martialartsmart.com



It's a daoist buddhist wushu energy cultivation publication and should also a medical guide. Hope it helps.



Anyway, in the same magazine for whoever had the querie on how taiji related to bagua or even xingyi for that matter ( and pls be kind in your response because this a looong quote ) here's a relevant and little better literated description in an extract from "the circle of 8 " By bagua master He Jing-Han ( contact @ [email protected] )


" Master He Jing-Han is a disciple of bagua grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai, a direct descendant of the lineage of baguas founder, Dong HAi Chun ( approx 1813 - 1882). ......... Bagua is a prominent internal style, akin to taichi and xingyi. It is based on a taoist cosmological system involving eight trigrams or bagau that revolve around the yin yang. Accordingly bagua is know for its circular movements.

Here in the west, bagua seems to be riding the coattails of taichi, despite being a completely different entree. Like any new ASian import, most bagua served up in the States has been watered down to suit the American palette. All too often here, bagua is made so bland as to appear like taichi done in circles. But as more westerners develop a taste for it, the true flavour of bagua begins to emerge. Aythentic traditional bagua is a respected delicay for a select few connoissuers who can distinguish its subtleties.

" I first started learning the yang style TaiChi 108 form. After I studied it for about 6 yrs, I hit a plateau. I stopped improving. People were really into push hands then. Later, I started learning xingyi from Grandmaster Chen Tian-Yi and bagua from Grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai. During my twenty yr tutelage in bagua, I stopped practicing tai chi . After I had a good grasp of bagua, I came back to tai chi and my tai chi was greatly improved."

" Now I understand why. In chinese martial arts, taichi is the highest form of expression. It's not your shape or outside appearance ( xing), it's your mind's expression ( yi). If you learn tai chi without your xing being at a high level, your body can't follow your yi. You won't be able to do tai chi well."

" In old days, tai chi masters would teach their students the basic movements of longfist. This is to prepare the body to have, as they say, 'loose tendons and hard bones( song jin da gu). Only after you have a good foundation can you start tai chi practice. It's like learning Chinese calligraphy. If you learn cursive characters ( tsao shu) then you must first learn cuneiform characters ( kai shu). You must learn how to do a basic drawing or sketch before you can do an abstract painting.

"In appearancew, tai chi and bagua look completely different, but the core concepts are actually very similar. in bagua, you learn to twist and compress your body to its smallest form. Tai chi is wide, open and soft. Their appearances asre opposite, like yin and yang, but many of their pricipals are parallel"

( Which when I personally talk similarities in styles, forms, stances, etc is what I am referring to )

" The difference between martial arts systems depends on how you use your bosy. Most systems move forward and backward while bagua is circular. There is twisting energy in bagua, so naturally you walk in a circle. Many people use tai chi movements to practice bagua - that's not correct. True practice of a particular art depends on the correct control of your body movements according to requirements of the art."

"Xingyi also uses twisting movements, however, you only move in a c straight line, not in a circle. "

East Wind, and others,

There is more to the article and it can be found in the nov/dec issue of kungfu magazine at www.martialartsmart.com or any good newstand. Typically great edition, so check it out.

cheers

Blooming Lotus

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Okay, so I picked up a copy of kungfu taichi magazine today and there is a title I can give you that is likely really well suited to your question. It's called " qigong empower ment " and it's written by Master Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching wu. It costs $34.95 US$ and isa available at www.martialartsmart.com



It's a daoist buddhist wushu energy cultivation publication and should also a medical guide. Hope it helps.



Anyway, in the same magazine for whoever had the querie on how taiji related to bagua or even xingyi for that matter ( and pls be kind in your response because this a looong quote ) here's a relevant and little better literated description in an extract from "the circle of 8 " By bagua master He Jing-Han ( contact @ [email protected] )


" Master He Jing-Han is a disciple of bagua grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai, a direct descendant of the lineage of baguas founder, Dong HAi Chun ( approx 1813 - 1882). ......... Bagua is a prominent internal style, akin to taichi and xingyi. It is based on a taoist cosmological system involving eight trigrams or bagau that revolve around the yin yang. Accordingly bagua is know for its circular movements.

Here in the west, bagua seems to be riding the coattails of taichi, despite being a completely different entree. Like any new ASian import, most bagua served up in the States has been watered down to suit the American palette. All too often here, bagua is made so bland as to appear like taichi done in circles. But as more westerners develop a taste for it, the true flavour of bagua begins to emerge. Aythentic traditional bagua is a respected delicay for a select few connoissuers who can distinguish its subtleties.

" I first started learning the yang style TaiChi 108 form. After I studied it for about 6 yrs, I hit a plateau. I stopped improving. People were really into push hands then. Later, I started learning xingyi from Grandmaster Chen Tian-Yi and bagua from Grandmaster Gong Bao-Zhai. During my twenty yr tutelage in bagua, I stopped practicing tai chi . After I had a good grasp of bagua, I came back to tai chi and my tai chi was greatly improved."

" Now I understand why. In chinese martial arts, taichi is the highest form of expression. It's not your shape or outside appearance ( xing), it's your mind's expression ( yi). If you learn tai chi without your xing being at a high level, your body can't follow your yi. You won't be able to do tai chi well."

" In old days, tai chi masters would teach their students the basic movements of longfist. This is to prepare the body to have, as they say, 'loose tendons and hard bones( song jin da gu). Only after you have a good foundation can you start tai chi practice. It's like learning Chinese calligraphy. If you learn cursive characters ( tsao shu) then you must first learn cuneiform characters ( kai shu). You must learn how to do a basic drawing or sketch before you can do an abstract painting.

"In appearancew, tai chi and bagua look completely different, but the core concepts are actually very similar. in bagua, you learn to twist and compress your body to its smallest form. Tai chi is wide, open and soft. Their appearances asre opposite, like yin and yang, but many of their pricipals are parallel"

( Which when I personally talk similarities in styles, forms, stances, etc is what I am referring to )

" The difference between martial arts systems depends on how you use your bosy. Most systems move forward and backward while bagua is circular. There is twisting energy in bagua, so naturally you walk in a circle. Many people use tai chi movements to practice bagua - that's not correct. True practice of a particular art depends on the correct control of your body movements according to requirements of the art."

"Xingyi also uses twisting movements, however, you only move in a c straight line, not in a circle. "

East Wind, and others,

There is more to the article and it can be found in the nov/dec issue of kungfu magazine at www.martialartsmart.com or any good newstand. Typically great edition, so check it out.

cheers

Blooming Lotus

 

[Fumanchu]

Blooming Lotus,

Yup it's correct that most northern practitioners start with long fist and also cross train in related systems. It helps you expand your understanding of the primary system that you're training in if nothing else.

Bagua was developed from grappling system (chinese wrestling) as well as other forms of northern kung fu ( which incidentally deal with grappling situations). Not surprising the resemblance of Bagua and Tai Chi. In terms of their developmental timeline, Bagua is a late comer (1800+) whereas Tai Chi came about in 1600s along with mantis and HsingI.

HsingI people say it's linear, but I would say that the system like Baji turns in tight circles, you're always redirecting your movements to produce a linear action as opposed to start - stop and restart again. HsingI, like Baji isn't jaring to the practitioner.

 

[East Winds]

chi-ca,
Why do I prefer Zhan Zhuang to other Qigongs? WOW!! Where to start! I could bore the pants off you with huge long explanations, but put quite simply, it alligns the body, it gives mental clarity, it clears energy blocks and aligns meridians. It is one of the first methods of training the mind to direct the chi and it develops martial power. The down side is that it is essential to have a competent instructor. Its not something you can learn in three weeks!!! Of course it is not the only Qigong I practise, but it is the one that I do every day and it is an excellent grounding and introduction to I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). One other Qigong I practise for energy generation and direction is Tai Chi Chih or Tai Chi Ruler. Well worth investigating. (Incidentally a very good book on Zhan Zhuang is Bruce Kumar Frantzis "Opening the energy Gates of your body" (ISBN1-55643-164-3)

Hope this helps

Regards

 

[Blooming Lotus]

For basic qigong as a compliment to taiji, I think brocades are an excellent choice! If it's only soft application you're after, you might want to look at the "shanghai Hospital Medical Qigong" sets, or incorperate it into your bracade sets. You can find some great pieces on different qigong sets with explanations if you click the search icon for past ezine articles at www.kungfumagazine.com , or again at www.houstonshaolin.com you will find some great pics of some sitting qigong exercises. Here's another link that might help you decide http://www.tai-chi.com/catalog/qiqongvideo4.htm and one for some tips on your practice http://www.wvi.com/~campb1/24_rules.htm. Awesome stuff! Enjoy your practice.

Blooming Lotus

 

[Blooming Lotus]

What about sex and tai chi / qigong?? Alot of people believe it greatly influences the bodies abilty to realign your chi and others again have sex regularly and find it doesn't make a difference. How many qigongers are having sex intermitantly to practice and do you find it makes a difference yourself??

Personally I find that it's the truth. The longer I abstain from both sex ( and alcohol for that matter), the stronger my practice seems to be ( particularly in tangible sensation while practicing ) and the better "quality " both my qi and my energy levels seem throughout the day. Anyone else?? What's your experience here?

BL

 

[vampyre_rat]

What about sex and tai chi / qigong?? Alot of people believe it greatly influences the bodies abilty to realign your chi and others again have sex regularly and find it doesn't make a difference. How many qigongers are having sex intermitantly to practice and do you find it makes a difference yourself??

Personally I find that it's the truth. The longer I abstain from both sex ( and alcohol for that matter), the stronger my practice seems to be ( particularly in tangible sensation while practicing ) and the better "quality " both my qi and my energy levels seem throughout the day. Anyone else?? What's your experience here?

BL

I am rereading "There are no secrets" by Wolfe Lowenthal. There is a chapter on this in that book. Someone asked the prof. about it. He said that there was different amounts of time required to replenish your chi. And that you should abstain if you were over 50. Although CMC said this, he did not follow it. It was better to be a human being than to be a taoist immortal alone on top of the mountain.

A good book and well worth a read.

 

[chi-ca]

chi-ca,
Why do I prefer Zhan Zhuang to other Qigongs? WOW!! Where to start! I could bore the pants off you with huge long explanations, but put quite simply, it alligns the body, it gives mental clarity, it clears energy blocks and aligns meridians. It is one of the first methods of training the mind to direct the chi and it develops martial power. The down side is that it is essential to have a competent instructor. Its not something you can learn in three weeks!!! Of course it is not the only Qigong I practise, but it is the one that I do every day and it is an excellent grounding and introduction to I-Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan). One other Qigong I practise for energy generation and direction is Tai Chi Chih or Tai Chi Ruler. Well worth investigating. (Incidentally a very good book on Zhan Zhuang is Bruce Kumar Frantzis "Opening the energy Gates of your body" (ISBN1-55643-164-3)

Hope this helps

Regards

Thank East Winds,
It's funny you recommended "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" because it has been on my (very long) reading list for a year now. I guess it's time to actually get the book!
Chi-ca

 

[East Winds]

Chi-ca,

Yeah, Bruce is one of these guys you either love or you hate. There are no in betweens with him. He calls a spade a spade. He has been there, done it and got several of the T-shirts. Not like some who claim to have done all sorts of internal MA's but who really have little knowledge beyond the basics. I had the pleasure of working with him for a very short period a couple of years ago and studied Bagua with one of his students. I like the guy.

Very best wishes