Purple Hearts & the Republican Convention

[Spud]

I wonder if such a stunt could be pulled off without the approval of the campaign. These events are pretty tightly scripted.

Of course, the band-aid could have been thought up by the same guy who wrote Jenna & Barbara's schtick ... I figure he has been re-assigned to that base in Antartica.

I'm hoping the RNC would have better taste than that. I really hope so. :shrug:

 

[michaeledward]

I believe it is wise to investigate Kerry's awards, especially if he is so vehement about using them for his campaign.

I know every Officer that did a tour in Iraq got a Bronze Star, even the ones who didn't do crap.

I never got to sit around and work on my computer and sit on the base, i was out walking the streets, watching the city or driving around. What do I get?
An Army Commendiation Medal, just like EVERY other soldier.

While the issue of whether or not someone really deserves the Purple Heart is trivial, it isn't when it's having to do with a presidential candidate. If we found out Kerry was lying why would we want him in office? If he is completely truthful, then we owe it to him to find out to eliminate all doubt.

Aaron, I wonder if you are just as rigourously looking into the missing 17 months in George W. Bush's service record?

What have you to say about Linda Allison's statements?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/02/allison/index.html

What have you to say about Ben Barnes' statements?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/01/barnes60minutes/index.html

 

[Tgace]

I think part of the reason so few people are interested in digging into it is that Bush isnt trying trying to use his military experience as a selling point like Kerry is......I think it would be a HUGE issue if he were.

 

[rmcrobertson]

This comes from the official re-elect Bush website:

"President George W. Bush
George W. Bush is the 43rd President of the United States. He was sworn into office January 20, 2001, after a campaign in which he outlined sweeping proposals to reform America's public schools, transform our national defense, provide tax relief, modernize Social Security and Medicare, and encourage faith-based and community organizations to work with government to help Americans in need. President Bush served for six years as the 46th Governor of the State of Texas, where he earned a reputation as a compassionate conservative who shaped public policy based on the principles of limited government, personal responsibility, strong families, and local control.

President Bush was born on July 6, 1946, in New Haven, Connecticut, and he grew up in Midland and Houston, Texas. He received a bachelor's degree from Yale University in 1968, then served as an F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, he assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers baseball franchise in 1989."

I particularly want to draw attention to the claim that Bush's policies are, "based on....personal responsibility," that he, "served as a F-102 fighter pilot in the Texas Air National Guard," that he, "began a career in the energy business," that he, "assembled the group of partners that purchased the Texas Rangers." Why?

1. Where'd the responsibility for defending the country get to?

2. Given his use of service to the nation as a repeated theme and image....would you consider a very flaky record in the ANG adequate?

3. His career in the energy business, if memory serves, consists of launching three different failed businesses. And meeting Ken Lay.

4. The Rangers purchase was the sweetheart deal de tutti sweetheart deals. Here's another quote, this time from Molly Ivens:

"He likes to tell people they have to take responsibility for their own lives, stand on their own two feet, not depend on the government. But he's never done it himself. His bidness career was a couple of cushy berths, courtesy of his name. At Harken Energy Corp., there are some serious ethical improprieties, in my opinion more grave than anything Bill Clinton was ever accused of in Whitewater.

Cut to the Texas Rangers baseball team. Dubya used government--to wit, a sales tax increase on the citizens of Arlington, Texas--to pay for a new baseball stadium. He bought into the Rangers for a reported $606,000 and sold last year for $14.9 million. Nice piece of change. Then he ran for governor on his daddy's name."

Hm.

 

[michaeledward]

I think part of the reason so few people are interested in digging into it is that Bush isnt trying trying to use his military experience as a selling point like Kerry is......I think it would be a HUGE issue if he were.

If I understand, you are saying that because the person who deserted his military service does not think that his desertion is a big deal (possibly because he was 'young and foolish'), we should give it a pass?

Now, maybe I could buy that argument if we were talking about someone was applying for a job at the local supermarket. After all, it was during the winding down period of the Vietnam war and lots of people were against the war by 1972. But, can we really give a pass to someone who is applying for the job of Commander-in-Chief?

 

[Tgace]

No..its been asked "why so few people care" about the Bush NG issue. IMO I think its because hes not trying to "use" it (as much as) Kerry is trying to use his military experience (minus much of the protest/medal slinging stuff).

Was he (Bush) charged under the UCMJ (with desertion)??? Honest question here, was he ever given any military disciplinary action??

 

[michaeledward]

Was he (Bush) charged under the UCMJ (with desertion)??? Honest question here, was he ever given any military disciplinary action??

was he ever charged with desertion?
I think the answer to that is NO. But, he was sent letters requesting he report for duty to more than 5 addresses while the military tried to locate him during the missing 17 months.


was he ever given any military disciplinary action?
This is quite possible. There are reports that are certainly more credible than SBVT, that his military file was purged before his second run for governor.

Additionally, while he said that he would release "all records" on Tim Russert's show earlier this year, many records have not been released, but rather only allowed to be reviewed by reporters for 20 minutes, no copies. Specifically, there should be some medical reports on file; all members of the service needed to complete a physical in the 8 months leading up to their 27th birthday. This is noticably lacking.

Add to that the report above, where Linda Allison, says the George W. was shipped off to Alabama to avoid embarrassing his father.

When compared against this statement:

While the issue of whether or not someone really deserves the Purple Heart is trivial, it isn't when it's having to do with a presidential candidate. If we found out Kerry was lying why would we want him in office? If he is completely truthful, then we owe it to him to find out to eliminate all doubt.

Aren't these questions equally valid about a Presidential candidate?

 

[MisterMike]

Then he ran for governor on his daddy's name."

Hm.

Kinda like fat Teddy and his name over here in Mass.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In the first place, bubba, "Fat Teddy," as you're pleased to call United States Senator Kennedy, lost two brothers to assassination in the service of his country, and has spent the last forty years busting his own *** in public service. I guess those demands for respect for government figures don't apply if you disapprove of someone's politics, eh?

In the second, my point was that George Bush has very much made his military service in the ANG--and his business record with the Rangers and energiy companies--a vital part of his resume.

I continue to be interested in the fact that we KNOW a number of things about Bush's cheesy past and nobody's interested--but g'damn, some folks are just absolutely fascinated with their conjectures, innuendoes, suppositions, half-truths and assorted unsubstantiated "facts," concerning Kerry.

Hm. Why is that?

 

[MisterMike]

Actually, I do not approve of career politicians. It leads to what we have now.

In the second, G. W. Bush has made less of his "resume" than has his opponents. His main item in 2000 was that he was a uniter and looked forward to working across the aisle. The Dem's sure put an end to that. (Fat Teddy being the spear-header)

I still think there's a lot to what's been claimed by the Swift Boat Veterans. But y'all got right on the character attacks before those got outta the gate. A ratio I heard was somewhere around 246 vets against Hanoi John's claims vs. 13 who back him. Kinda makes you wonder, unless you were there....you weren't right? But the rest of us have no right to question, even when the tables are so tipped.

I could really care what he did/didn't do there. But we do KNOW that he came back and tossed his medals and now parades them 30+ years later. Hm.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Fat Teddy." "Hanoi John." Charming. One loses two brothers and spends his life in public service, the other actually goes to Vietnam and gets shot at (unlike our President and Vice President...they ducked out, remember?), then works as a prosecutor, Lieutenant Governor and Senator (unlike our Prez and VP...Bush only began in 1987 to do anything for the public, and Cheney's a lifelong businessman and political op) and this is the thanks they get. Really...charming.

Shall I start in with...I dunno...no, never mind. One of the difficulties of having some manners and respect for people, if at all possible, is that one does not talk that way.

I suppose I could ask exactly when it was that you saw Kerry "parade," his medals, but what good would that do. Please, then, do keep going. Nothing exposes the essential ugliness and ignorance of a position better.

 

[MisterMike]

That's good to know. Your military career only counts if you've been shot at. What's the term.... Hizzoner?

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote, Michael, though I am glad to see that you've noticed that John Kerry did go, and did indeed get short at.

However, in case you've any interest in the actual point, it's that while service always counts, there does remain a large gap between people who knowingly shirk, say, going to Vietnam and then build their political careers around bashing peaceniks and people who avoided service while launching their countries into unnecessary wars on one side, and people who go, get shot at, serve bravely, then build their careers around arguing that wars ought to be avoided if at all possible, and we should particularly avoid pointless and stupid wars shoved upon us so politicians can score points.

 

[sma_book]

I still think there's a lot to what's been claimed by the Swift Boat Veterans. But y'all got right on the character attacks before those got outta the gate. A ratio I heard was somewhere around 246 vets against Hanoi John's claims vs. 13 who back him. Kinda makes you wonder, unless you were there....you weren't right? But the rest of us have no right to question, even when the tables are so tipped.

While you and I are about as far apart on the political spectrum, I usually find you to be thoughtful in your positions. They have always seemed to be guided by a)your Christian beliefs and b) your Libertarian view of government. I believe that you have mistakenly combined these two things into a "Republican", but that's for another discussion.

How can you portray such a lack of thoughtlessness on this subject? Only by disregarding evidence can you conclude that 264 people versus 13 people means anything. What is the crew compliment of a Swift Boat? The primary voice of those 264 claimants is John O'Neil, who did not arrive in Vietnam until after Kerry had left.

Really, please put some energy into the abundantly available evidence on this matter. The preponderance of evidence is obvious.

michaeledward

damnit ... posted as my wife again.

 

[AaronLucia]

You know what might be an interesting idea is just to believe both candidate's military records, and then to take what's left for debate.

 

[michaeledward]

You know what might be an interesting idea is just to believe both candidate's military records, and then to take what's left for debate.

Well, that would have been a very charitable thought 5 or 6 weeks ago, before John O'Neil (Karl Rove) launched a completely disingenuous attack on Kerry's service. And, I don't recall any of the Republicans, (except for John McCain) calling for such level headedness then.

 

[qizmoduis]

Well, that would have been a very charitable thought 5 or 6 weeks ago, before John O'Neil (Karl Rove) launched a completely disingenuous attack on Kerry's service. And, I don't recall any of the Republicans, (except for John McCain) calling for such level headedness then.

This kind of stuff is STANDARD PRACTICE for Republican campaigners. It happened with Clinton, it happened with Gore, it happened with Bush's primary opponents and it's happening with Kerry. And, as usual, they actually accuse Kerry of starting it all. It just reinforces my opinion that hypocrisy is an important part of being a conservative.

 

[Flatlander]

I don't know why I chose this thread, there are so many that would have been appropriate, however:

Washington — Weeks after Texas National Guard officials signed an oath swearing they had turned over all of President George W. Bush's military records, independent examiners found more than two dozen pages of previously unreleased documents about Bush.
The two retired army lawyers went through Texas files under an agreement between the Texas Guard and The Associated Press, which sued to gain access to the files. The 31 pages of documents turned over to AP on Thursday night include orders for high-altitude training in 1972, less than three months before Mr. Bush abruptly quit flying as a fighter pilot.

The discovery is the latest in a series of embarrassments for Pentagon and Texas National Guard officials who have repeatedly said they found and released all of Mr. Bush's Vietnam-era military files, only to belatedly discover more records. Those discoveries — nearly 100 pages, including Mr. Bush's pay records and flight logs — have been the result of freedom of information lawsuits filed in federal and Texas courts by AP.

The rest of the article at the Globe & Mail