Punching skill testing

[Gerry Seymour]

Seems like there should be less destructive ways to test. We don't test firearms by shooting each other.

This could be done with light, technical strikes, to minimize risk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont trust telling someone "hey try to punch my head, if you do you win!" And me trying to stop them, that the person wont get overexcited/committed and punch too hard. It seems like an unnecessary risk. Especially 5 times in a row.

I think a lot of that goes to the environment and how people train together. I'd have been okay with this test with all but about 2 of the people I trained with, once they had some experience (say at least a year or two in - striking was not high emphasis at that school).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We use gloves in this testing process.

Gloves wouldn't stop someone from punching hard - might even encourage it. Knowing your training partner's proclivities would be more useful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is if I start to emphasize on "anti-striking" strategy during the early training stage, students may not want to develop their striking skill. IMO, one has to learn the striking skill first and learn the anti-striking skill later.

I don't think it has to be in that direction. I teach defense before offense. As long as there's enough stress on the offense early enough, it's not a problem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure, but that “winner” could be a part of the language barrier too. Instead of winner, it could be the one most successful within the rule set.

It could also just be a way of viewing the interaction (the drill). If I remove the element of competition (the win/lose), then some people will take a more lackadaisical approach. The difference between "my job is to defend my head" and "my job is to make sure you don't hit my head" is subtle, but significant for some people. Adding the timing factor gives some urgency (though I'd probably shorten it to 30 seconds) - I can't just hang out and defend myself hoping for an easy opening.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was not in that test. My guys did the best they could. I don't believe they can do any better.

With these many years of MA training, I think I am an OK striker. If you use rhino guard and I punch your head, I don't think I can land any punch on your head within my 20 punches. It's not my punching skill is bad. Your extend arms can just hide your head nicely. It has nothing to do with the punching skill. It has to do with the design of the "rhino guard".

When my opponent uses

- boxing guard, I can punch between his arms.
- WC (or CMA) guard, I can punch beside his arms.
- rhino guard, I don't know how to reach to his head. If I punch straight, his fists are in my way. If I punch around, his arms are in my way.

IMO, the "rhino guard" should work for everybody. Try to play defense and use it to deal with your opponent's 20 head punches, you can then draw conclusion for yourself.

I like the concept of the rhino guard (and teach a similar technique), but I don't think it would be that effective against someone who uses round strikes well and changes angles. Hard body punches can force the arms in (reduce the extension) to open space for hooks.

 

[skribs]

In today's 2 hours class (Sunday 12:30 pm - 2 :30 pm). we did 3 sets of testing of 10 rounds each (20 punches as 1 round).

1. A punches, B blocks with rhino guard.
2. A punches, B blocks and also punches back with rhino guard.
3. A tries to destroy B's rhino guard and also punches on B's head. B tries to obtain a clinch on A.

Believe it or not, among those 20 x 10 x 3 = 600 punches, there was not even 1 punch that could land on the head. It proves that rhino guard is effective to protect the head from punched.

But is it effective outside of a vacuum? The head is a pretty small target to cover. It's easy to focus your guard there. If you can punch around it, does it give you the vision and proximity to block attacks coming to your ribs or gut?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like the concept of the rhino guard (and teach a similar technique), but I don't think it would be that effective against someone who uses round strikes well and changes angles. Hard body punches can force the arms in (reduce the extension) to open space for hooks.

But is it effective outside of a vacuum? The head is a pretty small target to cover. It's easy to focus your guard there. If you can punch around it, does it give you the vision and proximity to block attacks coming to your ribs or gut?

If I punch your body, my head will be exposed for your rhino guard punch. Please notice that the only offense ability for the rhino guard is the face punch.

- If your rhino guard is 10 inch away from my face, and
- my hands are 20 inch away from your body,

When I punch toward your body, your rhino guard can hit my face long before my hand can reach to your body.

You have 2 arms and I have 2 arms. If your arm is not protecting your head and you punch my body, your head is exposed. As far as I know, there exist no other "guard" that can be used to

- protect your head, and also at the same time,
- punch back to your opponent's head.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. All the same, putting stress on a particular skill at a time is useful. If I have a student who is head-hunting to their own detriment (no offense, @Headhunter ), I might put them on a restricted ruleset in sparring for a while, where only body punches "count". Once they work that for a while, it should actually improve their head-hunting.

In your scenario you are breaking someone out of a bad habit vs trying to improve on punches to the body.

You could still allow punches to the head to set up punches to the body. The rule to only count body punches can still apply.

You can improve on it by setting a time limit to get in a certain amount of body shots. If you have a skilled fighter then you can limit it to certain pars of the body or limit it to specific types of punches to the body. There are other ways to isolate punches.

You can actually see competitions where the martial artist punches to the body so much that they get hit in the face very easily. This happens in competitions where punching to the face is not aloud.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I punch your body, my head will be exposed for your rhino guard punch. Please notice that the only offense ability for the rhino guard is the face punch.

You're only counting one of my hands. Given the rhino guard's unification of the hands, one hand can defend against two, leaving my other hand to strike.

- If your rhino guard is 10 inch away from my face, and
- my hands are 20 inch away from your body,

When I punch toward your body, your rhino guard can hit my face long before my hand can reach to your body.

Why are my hands twice as far from you as yours are from me?

You have 2 arms and I have 2 arms. If your arm is not protecting your head and you punch my body, your head is exposed. As far as I know, there exist no other "guard" that can be used to

- protect your head, and also at the same time,
- punch back to your opponent's head.

The same concept can be delivered with separate hands, though it works differently, obviously. When using the unified hands to both defend and attack, you're partly blocking your own vision, which opens other opportunities.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In your scenario you are breaking someone out of a bad habit vs trying to improve on punches to the body.

You could still allow punches to the head to set up punches to the body. The rule to only count body punches can still apply.

You can improve on it by setting a time limit to get in a certain amount of body shots. If you have a skilled fighter then you can limit it to certain pars of the body or limit it to specific types of punches to the body. There are other ways to isolate punches.

You can actually see competitions where the martial artist punches to the body so much that they get hit in the face very easily. This happens in competitions where punching to the face is not aloud.

There are certainly other options for that training. My point was simply that there are times when focusing on a single option in sparring is useful from a training perspective. I could amend my prior post by only giving them the option of body shots, with a similar objective (though I tend not to like doing that, as it causes people to stop protecting their heads).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're only counting one of my hands. Given the rhino guard's unification of the hands, one hand can defend against two, leaving my other hand to strike.

When I punch your face, my head is well protected. When you punch my body, your head is exposed.

Why are my hands twice as far from you as yours are from me?

Because my rhino guard arms are extended. Your boxing guard arms are bent. Your bent arms are shorter than my extended arms. My fists are close to your face. Your fists are away from my body.

When using the unified hands to both defend and attack, you're partly blocking your own vision, which opens other opportunities.

Again, I'm only interested in your head. This make my goal very simple.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I punch your face, my head is well protected. When you punch my body, your head is exposed.

Again, you're ignoring that I have two separate hands, while the rhino guard unifies the hands for power and structure. So, I can punch (body or head) with one hand, and use the other to connect to the rhino guard.

Also, when the rhino guard is extended, the head is protected from the sides (assuming it's at extension, otherwise not so much). A change of levels can open the window for a straight punch, and a slip can open the window for an uppercut - neither of which is the rhino guard a solid defense for. Now, if I'm the attacker, you're safe from that level change (I suck at that), but a boxer is likely to be good at it. The uppercut, I'd expect many strikers to have in their toolkit.

Because my rhino guard arms are extended. Your boxing guard arms are bent. Your bent arms are shorter than my extended arms. My fists are close to your face. Your fists are away from my body.

Why am I stuck in a boxing guard? And why am I stuck in front of you? If I change that angle (one hand to block the extended rhino guard from following), then even with a middle-distance guard my hands are closer to you than yours are to me.

Again, I'm only interested in your head. This make my goal very simple.

And my defense. If all I have to worry about is my head, I don't have to defend body. You still have to defend both.