Punches in WTF TKD

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: Now, now, John . He did say it was just his opinion after all . Not one that many martial artists would share, I agree, but still a view of a sporting event that has it's own internal validity. You already know what I think of martial arts competitions so pushing one even further away from serious practise is of little concern in my view - at the end of the day, I use a sword for what I do so it makes no odds to me :lol:.

 

[Cyriacus]

Aren't they supposed to be a point for each punch scored, just like a kick?

A Midsection Kick, Yes. (I think)

 

[SPX]

I don't think it's as conspiratorial as a master agenda from the WTF. I've had punches not score that I thought should have, but everybody I know who has said that also says it about kicks---I've had lots of those not score when they should have too. Now that I've sat as a corner judge some and seen how tough the job is, I agree with what my master teaches: you have to do 3 things to score--1) hit with shocking power and on-target; 2) be in a position and angle in the ring that at least 2 judges have a clear view of the strike; and 3) sell the point (carry self with confidence, kiap, celebrate the point, have hit earlier with power so judges give you any benefit of the doubt [judges are human]). Kicks hit harder than punches and are harder to get on target, both of which are good reasons to give more credence to kicking than punching.

Lots of kicks don't score when they should either, and leg movement is easier to see than arm movement--because arms are easier to hide behind the trunk. Having judged a little, good judges don't score based on sound or guess; they score what they see as a clean point.

I do think legitimate punches are scoring more now than in the past, so I think the balance is improving for scoring of good punches. However, I don't want punches to score easily. If they did, then you'd see more of the garbage we see occasionally at open tournaments: a (usually chunky 30+ yr old) guy (seems like always with a beard) will show up and wear TKD gear except you'll see him strap on his MMA or bag gloves. When the match starts he throws a low-n-slow front kick as an entry and then bulls forward throwing punches until he shoves you out of the ring or you cut around him and kick him. I loved fighting those guys as a colored belt, but it's ugly and lacks skill except as movement practice. There's a reason you don't see that in black belt rings.

Carl

Thanks for the info and clarification.

I've already made an agreement with myself that when I start competing in Olympic-style events I'm going to a) become proficient enough in using a variety of kicks under the WTF ruleset that I'm not stuck doing roundhouse after roundhouse, and b) make punching a core part of my strategy. Because if there's not a way to do this and be successful, then it's not a competition worth competing in.

And I hear you on there needing to be a degree of difficulty in scoring punches. Otherwise you'd just have guys unloading a flurry of fast and weak punches and racking up 15 points. People would probably just stop kicking if it were that easy.

 

[puunui]

Yea but that is because boxing doesnt have kicking in its skillset; taekwondo does. Taekwondo is the way of kicking and punching and hand techniques should not be taken out of competition in my opinion. If fact, I think they should be scored more than they currently are. You may not have as many spectacular kicks in competition as frequently but more punches would make for better overall fighters.

In my opinion, if you want to do "punching", then go practice your poomsae. There is a lot of punching there.

 

[puunui]

Should you really have to take a person off their feet for a punch to score, though? Isn't that something of an unrealistic standard? I would think that the punch should only have to be hard enough to hurt a person if they weren't wearing a hogu.

You don't have to drop people with a punch to score. But you do have to be in correct position, meaning front stance and either reverse punch or lunge punch position, like in a poomsae. Boxing hooks to the body don't score, or I should say shouldn't score, but sometimes does, if you drop the opponent with it.

 

[SPX]

In my opinion, if you want to do "punching", then go practice your poomsae. There is a lot of punching there.

I don't understand why all the allowed techniques in a Shotokan karate tournament--kicks, punches, sweeps--aren't allowed in TKD, considering the curriculums are so similar.

TKD could still distinguish itself by having continuous sparring and scoring kicks in a way that encourages their use.

Now that I think about it, this is pretty much what the ITF does, minus the sweeps.

 

[SPX]

You don't have to drop people with a punch to score. But you do have to be in correct position, meaning front stance and either reverse punch or lunge punch position, like in a poomsae. Boxing hooks to the body don't score, or I should say shouldn't score, but sometimes does, if you drop the opponent with it.

Well as someone studying karate along with TKD, I intend to lunge punch the s--t out of people and the judges better acknowledge it!

 

[puunui]

i cant say anything that wont get me a Ban hammer. I am literally sitting here thinking that i want to give my belt back. If i was one of your students, i would.

No problem, I would happily accept your belt. I have no problems punching people in the face in a self defense situation. You forget that I had a student who won the black belt division at USTU nationals scoring punches. I also don't mind using punches to set up scoring kicks in a tournament situation. I will say that when the opponent knows you can punch hard in a clinch, they tend not to clinch anymore. They reactively make space to avoid your punch, setting up your scoring kick. But then again, I am not a robot who can only respond one way when faced with a situation. I practice hapkido too and don't feel the urge to joint lock someone in the middle of a match. Like you and everyone else who hates taekwondo says, it's only a game, so why not make the rules to maximize taekwondo's unique and most beautiful aspect, its kicks?

 

[puunui]

I don't understand why all the allowed techniques in a Shotokan karate tournament--kicks, punches, sweeps--aren't allowed in TKD, considering the curriculums are so similar.

TKD could still distinguish itself by having continuous sparring and scoring kicks in a way that encourages their use.

Now that I think about it, this is pretty much what the ITF does, minus the sweeps.

If you want those types of rules, go to those types of tournaments and take those types of arts. When in rome, do as the romans do.

 

[SPX]

If you want those types of rules, go to those types of tournaments and take those types of arts. When in rome, do as the romans do.

I'm just asking why.

I mean, it would be like me creating a martial art that includes punching, kicking, and grappling but saying only punches are allowed in competition. Do you not see that such a decision is just kind of weird?

 

[puunui]

I mean, it would be like me creating a martial art that includes punching, kicking, and grappling but saying only punches are allowed in competition. Do you not see that such a decision is just kind of weird?

No. When I see kids fighting with each other in Korea, they are throwing kick, not trying to punch each other or wrestle them to the ground like an american kid would. I remember seeing a fight once in school, and one kid was kicking, while the other kid was yelling "hey, no fair, no kicks, you are cheating". Different culture, different response to a fighting situation. The taekwondo pioneers wanted to create something unique, not horn in on karate and its rules. They chose to emphasize taekwondo's beautiful kicks instead of punches. If taekwondo allowed full contact punches to the head (which is frowned upon in korean culture anyway), the result would have been kickboxing, which was already out there in thailand. Kick only or emphasis on kicks is unique to taekwondo competition. Let's keep it that way.

 

[SPX]

No. When I see kids fighting with each other in Korea, they are throwing kick, not trying to punch each other or wrestle them to the ground like an american kid would. I remember seeing a fight once in school, and one kid was kicking, while the other kid was yelling "hey, no fair, no kicks, you are cheating". Different culture, different response to a fighting situation. The taekwondo pioneers wanted to create something unique, not horn in on karate and its rules. They chose to emphasize taekwondo's beautiful kicks instead of punches. If taekwondo allowed full contact punches to the head (which is frowned upon in korean culture anyway), the result would have been kickboxing, which was already out there in thailand. Kick only or emphasis on kicks is unique to taekwondo competition. Let's keep it that way.

Yes, but the ITF does exactly that--allows punches to the head--and it's still TKD is it not?

 

[Gorilla]

My son scored 6 punch points in 3 matches at the recent Jr World Team trials. That Shotokan training is coming in handy. I saw allot of punches scored. It seems part of the game plan at many schools

 

[SPX]

My son scored 6 punch points in 3 matches at the recent Jr World Team trials. That Shotokan training is coming in handy. I saw allot of punches scored. It seems part of the game plan at many schools

I like that. It's good to hear. I really want to make punches a big part of my overall strategy.

I hope I can develop a super-strong punch that just levels guys.

 

[puunui]

Yes, but the ITF does exactly that--allows punches to the head--and it's still TKD is it not?

To tell you the truth, I don't know what itf is anymore. I will say that since the passing of General Choi, it has lost steam and fragmented and continues to fragment. Kukkiwon processes more poom and dan certificates in a year than itf has done since 1966 when it was founded.

 

[puunui]

I like that. It's good to hear. I really want to make punches a big part of my overall strategy.

I hope I can develop a super-strong punch that just levels guys.

I would suggest using the makiwara, or kwongo/talyonbong in korean.

 

[SPX]

To tell you the truth, I don't know what itf is anymore. I will say that since the passing of General Choi, it has lost steam and fragmented and continues to fragment. Kukkiwon processes more poom and dan certificates in a year than itf has done since 1966 when it was founded.

Even with the breakaway orgs it's still ITF. Here in Utah it's really not ITF . . . it's USTF. But the curriculum is the same and the uniforms adorn the emblems of both organizations.

 

[SPX]

I would suggest using the makiwara, or kwongo/talyonbong in korean.

Thanks. We do use the makiwara at my wado dojo, so I hope that will help.

 

[puunui]

Thanks. We do use the makiwara at my wado dojo, so I hope that will help.

How do they tell you to hit the makiwara? Do you hit it on the surface only, or do you bend the makiwara? Also is it covered in rice rope or foam?

 

[puunui]

Oh, and on the subject of wadoryu, does the curriculum include a lot of joint locks, throws, or other jujitsu style techniques?