Punch with footwork or punch without footwork?

[Kung Fu Wang]

the emphasis in Xingyiquan is on moving.

The word "Xing" also mean moving in Chinese. In XingYi, moving is used to create opportunity. The main principle of XingYi is:

Even if you can't find any opening to attack, you keep moving. During moving, soon or later you will find opportunity to attack.

Chinese wrestling uses this strategy too - move in circle.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The word "Xing" also mean moving in Chinese. In XingYi, moving is used to create opportunity. The main principle of XingYi is:

Even if you can't find any opening to attack, you keep moving. During moving, soon or later you will find opportunity to attack.

形 (Xing) means shape, but that does not dismiss the fact that we trained all 5 elements from a static stance as well as moving, but the emphasis is on moving. You also need to be able to deliver a strike, with power, while maintaining structure, when not moving.

Note: Xingyiquan 形意拳 means "Form intent fist" or "Shape-Will Fist"

形 - Shape
意 – Meaning
拳 - Fist

Also I thought move is 移动 Yídòng

 

[Buka]

I think it depends on what you're training, why you're training and who is teaching you. The "who" is important because that's what you're going to be doing.

Personally, I like to teach a jab first. With the various accompanying steps. But then - I show them some good old "old fashioned" Karate training and put them in a horse stance and do focused, hard reverse punches. Which they get a kick out of......for about three minutes. But about ten minutes in they're eyes and minds are usually opened a bit more. And they're usually making mental deals with God right around now. And, yes, I'm doing them along with them.

Next is an overhand right/straight right/right cross....then a reverse punch from a fighting position. Both with footwork and slight footwork. And both sides, of course. And the other punches, and kicks, and blocks and parries and take downs and everything else.

Repeat correctly twelve jillion times, all the while applying to resisting opponents, most of whom are much better than you are, all of whom are trying to smack the crap out of you.

Easy peasy this Martial Arts stuff.

But, oh, so much fun.

 

[mograph]

The word "Xing" also mean moving in Chinese.

Not in this case.
It is common for non-speakers of Chinese to ignore the character (形) and instead focus on the transliteration (xing) to derive the meaning. If we ignored the character, we might as well say that the martial art's meaning also derives from sex, inspection, satellite, or torture, leading to some fascinating discussions, I'm sure. Link.

In the case of the martial art xingyiquan, the character for xing is 形 (form/shape) not 行 (move). We should derive the meaning from this character.

 

[jobo]

If you think that's all anyone can use if for, you're not trying very hard.

It reinforces technique (doesn't teach it, IMO). It's useful for exercise and (sometimes) for agility/range-of-motion training. It's useful for practicing the transitions between things. It is not, in my experience, very useful for introducing new concepts.

moving your hands and feet at the same time won't be a new concept for any one who isn't paraplegic, kata will work very well for establishing anew pattern of movement

 

[Gerry Seymour]

moving your hands and feet at the same time won't be a new concept for any one who isn't paraplegic, kata will work very well for establishing anew pattern of movement

Not necessarily with any proper mechanics for striking. You're reaching.

 

[jobo]

Not necessarily with any proper mechanics for striking. You're reaching.

proper mechanics is just a movement pattern like any other movement pattern, which you get through repetition, in for instance a kata

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've never been exposed to that. I've wondered about how to start a beginner with footwork (some I can do that with, easily - others, it seems to confuse things as @JowGaWolf said). If I had enough training in a boxing punch, I'd probably switch to teaching it first - it seems to actually work better with NGA's basic movement than does the Shotokan-style punch traditionally used.

From what I can tell boxers train footwork separately from punching as well. My guess is probably because in a fight you do footwork even when you don't punch. It's usually not really tied into punching until the discussion of Punching Power comes into play.

 

[WaterGal]

Like others have said, both are important. The old-school "stand in a horse stance and punch from the waist a bunch of times" is IMO a decent way to train using the core to generate power. Beginners, especially kids, often try to just punch with their arm. Of course they can't get a lot of power that way, so in forms or sparring you'll often see them leaning/lunging into the punch to get some extra power from their momentum. So IMO isolating the punch by itself can help with this kind of issue. But practicing footwork is also essential - if your distancing is wrong, your hit isn't going to connect no matter how good it is, and you open yourself to getting hit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not in this case.
It is common for non-speakers of Chinese to ignore the character (形) and instead focus on the transliteration (xing) to derive the meaning. If we ignored the character, we might as well say that the martial art's meaning also derives from sex, inspection, satellite, or torture, leading to some fascinating discussions, I'm sure. Link.

In the case of the martial art xingyiquan, the character for xing is 形 (form/shape) not 行 (move). We should derive the meaning from this character.

Book - The missing MA world 逝去的武林
Author - Li Zhung Xuan 李仲轩 (1915～2004), student of 唐维禄, 尚云祥, 薛颠

李仲轩 in english - Google Search:

逝去的武林 : 唐门忆旧 五台雨雪恨难消_李仲轩 徐皓峰_在线阅读_九九藏书网

Here is partial translation:

Xing Yi Chuan is also called "walking mind fist"... Most of the time, the work mind is removed and it's called "walking fist".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

proper mechanics is just a movement pattern like any other movement pattern, which you get through repetition, in for instance a kata

It's possible to move through the pattern without using the right mechanics. Especially since the pattern isn't using a physical target to strike.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

proper mechanics is just a movement pattern like any other movement pattern, which you get through repetition, in for instance a kata

All of that, however, is irrelevant. Your spoke to the purpose of kata. I told you that's not the purpose of my kata. What is and is not possible with kata is not in any way relevant to a discussion of its purpose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From what I can tell boxers train footwork separately from punching as well. My guess is probably because in a fight you do footwork even when you don't punch. It's usually not really tied into punching until the discussion of Punching Power comes into play.

My thought was more on how to train the punch initially with the footwork. I've never had much success combining the two for folks who don't already have some concept of how to punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My thought was more on how to train the punch initially with the footwork. I've never had much success combining the two for folks who don't already have some concept of how to punch.

If the punch and footwork are the same thing then you won't have any choice but to train both of them at once. Jow Ga's big punches can't be broken down into 2 separate components. Both have to be trained together. The swinging of the arms actually helps to develop the footwork. It's always a train wreck that lasts for months and sometimes years, before students can do it correct.

Jabs go a little easier because it's something students an focus on without confusion from other types of movement. If the student doesn't know how to punch or at least imitate the movement of a punch then you can forget about the footwork working. This is pretty much what I do by default now. I watch people punch and then I try to correct and explain how to punch. How much I explain depends on how frustrated they look when I start correcting.

If the punch and footwork are foreign movements then their brains are going to explode lol.
Here is a beginner's Jow Ga Class. Brains all over the place (This is punch + footwork training). After you sweep up the brains you have to go back and manage any frustration that students may be having so they don't quit. This usually requires breaking movements into pieces and giving them bite size things to work on. A bad punch can weaken the stance, bad footwork can weaken a punch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the punch and footwork are the same thing then you won't have any choice but to train both of them at once. Jow Ga's big punches can't be broken down into 2 separate components. Both have to be trained together. The swinging of the arms actually helps to develop the footwork. It's always a train wreck that lasts for months and sometimes years, before students can do it correct.

Jabs go a little easier because it's something students an focus on without confusion from other types of movement. If the student doesn't know how to punch or at least imitate the movement of a punch then you can forget about the footwork working. This is pretty much what I do by default now. I watch people punch and then I try to correct and explain how to punch. How much I explain depends on how frustrated they look when I start correcting.

If the punch and footwork are foreign movements then their brains are going to explode lol.
Here is a beginner's Jow Ga Class. Brains all over the place (This is punch + footwork training). After you sweep up the brains you have to go back and manage any frustration that students may be having so they don't quit. This usually requires breaking movements into pieces and giving them bite size things to work on. A bad punch can weaken the stance, bad footwork can weaken a punch.

Good explanation. The common punch found in most Japanese arts is an upper-body punch (most of the technique is from the hips, up) that can be augmented by adding footwork and/or heavier use of the legs (as compared to how the legs operate from a horse stance, for instance). So it's pretty common to separate the punch and add the footwork later. Actually, I've seen it where the footwork was never actually taught linked to the punch - students learned the two separately, and just assimilated the combination over time. I don't think that's a best practice, but I've seen it.

Back to the OP: I think too much time spent working without footwork (especially if that means without real leg involvement) can lead to students having trouble putting them together properly. I like to get them to adding power from the legs as early as I can.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Book - The missing MA world 逝去的武林
Author - Li Zhung Xuan 李仲轩 (1915～2004), student of 唐维禄, 尚云祥, 薛颠

李仲轩 in english - Google Search:

逝去的武林 : 唐门忆旧 五台雨雪恨难消_李仲轩 徐皓峰_在线阅读_九九藏书网

Here is partial translation:

Xing Yi Chuan is also called "walking mind fist"... Most of the time, the work mind is removed and it's called "walking fist".

For the record, and this is now getting way off topic so I will let it all go after this

Sun Lutang = Form Mind Boxing
Li Tianji = Form and Intent Boxing

Di Guoyong, from his book "Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan"
Li Luoneng (李洛能) changed the character from Xin 心 to Xing 形 [note XIngyiquan comes from Xinyiquan]

"Li Luoneng changed only one character, changing xin [heart] to xing 形 to xing [form, shape, structure] to make the name [form and intent] more meaningful


I also believe Jin Yunting, in his book, also used Form intent, but I have to look that up to be certain

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The swinging of the arms actually helps to develop the footwork.

Here is another good example. I like to train hand-feet coordination during day one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Back to the OP: I think too much time spent working without footwork (especially if that means without real leg involvement) can lead to students having trouble putting them together properly. I like to get them to adding power from the legs as early as I can.

I agree. One of the major problems that you will see with beginner kung fu students is that they don't move their feet. This often is the result from misunderstanding of stance training and not listening, but mostly from stance training. When I say stance training I mean when we teach them how to take a fighting stance and how to position the feet,. This type stuff

Students often think of stance perfection as "exact measurements" that never change and as a result put them at risk of twisting the ligaments and tendons in their knees. So the sooner instructors can get them to understand that they can adjust their feet and move their feet as a way of positioning a stance vs taking a stance then trying to make adjustments, the better. A student who is complaining about their knees hurting is probably not using footwork to place the their stance. They are probaby just setting their stance and try to adjust the joints, versus adjust the feet.

The sooner they can understand the footwork, the sooner they can start drawing water (power) from the well. The deeper the bucket sinks in the well the sooner a student can fill that bucket with water (power). Which is like punching from the base. Buckets that only skim the top of the water surface have less water (power). This is a the same as trying to only generate power with arms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is another good example. I like to train hand-feet coordination during day one.

I have a video of me hitting someone with that same punch lol. I'll try to remember to post it. My opponent didn't like it. I should have hit him harder lol.

 

[jobo]

It's possible to move through the pattern without using the right mechanics. Especially since the pattern isn't using a physical target to strike.

it's possible to use the wrong mechanics in any area of practise, that generally what you have a instructer for