Punch and Kick Force?

[Andrew Green]

I measure my kicking and punching power in the agonized tears of my enemies :wink1: Heh, heh, heh...

Seriously, interesting topic.

I seem to remember a few years ago reading in Black Belt Magazine about these electronic devices that one could attach to a punching bag or makiwara. I don't recall ever hitting one but if they work, and frankly I'm not really sure what valid and measureable standard we can use for hitting power, given that neither PSI, newton meters, or joules are really applicable in isolation, it would be interesting to use as a developmental tool.

Mark

Force should be pretty easy to measure, but its only a piece of the puzzle.

Hitting a stationery target is one thing, actually hurting a person is another.

It's not just a "targets don't hit back" deal, that is part of it, but not all of it.

Put one of those force measures against something solid and hit it, you'll get one reading. Hang it from the ceiling with as little weight on it as you can and you will get a much smaller number.

A lot of "power" in strikes comes from timing and setups, getting the person to come into it, or not see it coming in a way that their body can react to it hitting them well.

I can through the exact same punch, with the exact same mechanics and motion, but depending on what my opponent is doing and how he reacts to it, it could land and KO him, or land and do very little.

Raw power is important, but focusing on it, like focusing on any other single aspect is a misleading thing.

 

[shihansmurf]

Raw power is important, but focusing on it, like focusing on any other single aspect is a misleading thing.

True, however if we were to be able to accurately measure impact power in some objective way it would be helpful.We could actually have some objective standard to work with in helping our students hit harder.

If, say, we were to rate it on foot pounds and the student hits at 40 foot pounds at green belt, then one of the promotion requirements would be to increase power by 10%. While, obviously it wouldn't be the only requirement it would be an interesting option to have.

Mark

Caveat #1: I actually have no idea how hard a person can hit in foot pounds. I just pulled that 40 ft.lb. number out of my rear end.

Caveat #2: If the above seems disjointed I apologize as I am rather high on cold medicine and am having trouble thinking cogently. Please feel free to disregard as the quasi-lucid ramblings of a medicated mind.

 

[el gato]

I have been very interested in this latley. I agree with thought many have said that yes the force you hit on a wall hug item is not the same as the force when hitting someone moving, but I still think it could be a fun tool. Some one said it already exsits if it does can some one post info on it. Or if anyone has ideas on how to make one I would like that as well.

They used something like this in the Mythbusters to see the force of their puch for a few myths, and by the commercials it looks like they are getting it out for more MA myths this seison.

 

[kwaichang]

Bruce Lee said it best: "boards don't hit back".

 

[Deaf Smith]

I kind of wonder...

If you got a car tire innertube, inflated it to it's normal PSI, had a tire guage attached, and then punched or kicked it. Might see the guage show the increase, then subtract the beginning value.

I bet it takes two people though. One to do the kick/punch and the othere with the tire guage hooked to the innertube.

Might try it first on a lawnmower innertube.

Deaf

 

[kwaichang]

check your medical insurance first..........you'll need it.

 

[el gato]

Bruce Lee said it best: "boards don't hit back".

I think we all understand the fact that just because you can break a board does not make you all that... etc... but I would hope we can still see value in being able to quantify power, and improvment in that power.

 

[kwaichang]

To some it needs to be made clearer than to others, especially students just starting out.

 

[kwaichang]

I think we all understand the fact that just because you can break a board does not make you all that... etc... but I would hope we can still see value in being able to quantify power, and improvment in that power.

:angel:Some do not understand that, especially those starting out. Hitting inner tubes and walls and doors isn't the same.:uhyeah:

 

[karate]

if we were to be able to accurately measure impact power in some objective way

This is one (personal computer software to measure a punch)

http://knockouter.com

 

[Blade96]

Really old thread lol

But I must respond because i think my point has some validity

Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.

 

[dancingalone]

Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.

Power is a primary concern in my practice and instruction. An often neglected point is that even if you don't land a shot perfectly (control) if you have sufficient power mechanics, the blow can still be a fight-ending one. Many don't focus sufficiently on it in my opinion because the methods of gaining power are painful and arduous: hand conditioning, physical conditioning, endless repetitions with makiwara, etc.

 

[jks9199]

Really old thread lol

But I must respond because i think my point has some validity

Does it matter how hard someone can punch/kick? I kick and punch hard, used to and still do. Until my BB's pointed out that its not really ABOUT punching the hardest you can punch. The point is developing control.

What is your purpose in training? If you're training for personal development and self-perfection, then your training is all about control.

If you're training for self-defense, your training must address power generation and application, the realities of a violent encounter, and then control both in what you do, and what level of force you use. A perfectly controlled strike, with no power applied to the attacker, is not likely to be of use in a violent encounter.

Most of us balance all of these concerns in our training. I aim to be able to control what I do -- but also to be able to really deliver.

 

[ATC]

What is your purpose in training? If you're training for personal development and self-perfection, then your training is all about control.

If you're training for self-defense, your training must address power generation and application, the realities of a violent encounter, and then control both in what you do, and what level of force you use. A perfectly controlled strike, with no power applied to the attacker, is not likely to be of use in a violent encounter.

Most of us balance all of these concerns in our training. I aim to be able to control what I do -- but also to be able to really deliver.

If you are training to develop control then power is the by product of that type of training.

If you are only trying to develop power without control then you will never develop your full potential of power.

Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.

I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a 135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135 pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little
(only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.

I now understand this and I can tell you that all my student and fellow black belts say I hit harder than people larger than me. Not because I work on power but because I work on control.

The other thing I can say is that if you get into a situation where you are evenly matched or you may even be slightly better, you better have control or all your tense power swings will tire you out faster than anything and you will find yourself on the losing end of such encounter. Well only if you opponent is under control. Power is nice but when understood. Power out of control will fade fast.

 

[dancingalone]

Most people that only work on power do more pushing than anythng else. Yes they may hit hard but not as hard as they could if relaxed and in control.

Only if they're not getting the correct feedback from their drills. I don't let my students move onto a heavy bag for precisely this reason unless they have sufficient experience and proficiency using a makiwara first to avoid pushing.

There are many components to effective striking. Relaxation as you mentioned is one of them, but there are other factors and methods you can train to augment the kinetic chain of power. I also teach hip rotation AND vibration, grounding, hand conditioning, bodily momentum, and bodily snap.

I believe you should actually focus on power generation first and then control and sensitivity is attained over time and practice. This is the approach Andre Agassi took in tennis - his first coach, his dad, told the young boy to work on swinging out first and then the placement would follow later. Worked well with Agassi and I believe it can work well in martial arts.

I'm not a big fan of parlor tricks, but I can do that punch demo with the telephone book where someone holds a big Yellow Pages to their stomach as a shield and lets you punch them. People always downgrade the straight karate thrust punch since it does not look impressive in the air unlike some other punches from say boxing, but I can make a believer out of them.

I have been hit by 250+ pounds guys and none of them hit me harder than a 135 pound person. The only way to explain the differenc is that the 135 pound guy hit me inside my body and everything hurt from the spot he hit (chest) to my head and even stomach area and my back. The bigger guys moved me with there weight (push power) and yes it hurt a little (only where impact area was) but did not stop or put me down.

Sounds like the smaller guy had it going then. Some people call that type of power 'snap'. Some Okinawan karate styles describe it as 'chinkuchi' or ki striking. As I understand it, it's simply a combination of all those striking elements I mention above. Obviously some manifest the speed and relaxation aspects more, particularly if they are smaller and can move quicker. The ideal ratio is different for everyone, but the goal is to move whatever mass you possess at the optimum rate of speed while having sufficient weapon density/concentration and strength to punch THROUGH the target with hopefully some type of rotational force.

 

[ATC]

Only if they're not getting the correct feedback from their drills. I don't let my students move onto a heavy bag for precisely this reason unless they have sufficient experience and proficiency using a makiwara first to avoid pushing.

There are many components to effective striking. Relaxation as you mentioned is one of them, but there are other factors and methods you can train to augment the kinetic chain of power. I also teach hip rotation AND vibration, grounding, hand conditioning, bodily momentum, and bodily snap.

I believe you should actually focus on power generation first and then control and sensitivity is attained over time and practice. This is the approach Andre Agassi took in tennis - his first coach, his dad, told the young boy to work on swinging out first and then the placement would follow later. Worked well with Agassi and I believe it can work well in martial arts.

I'm not a big fan of parlor tricks, but I can do that punch demo with the telephone book where someone holds a big Yellow Pages to their stomach as a shield and lets you punch them. People always downgrade the straight karate thrust punch since it does not look impressive in the air unlike some other punches from say boxing, but I can make a believer out of them.



Sounds like the smaller guy had it going then. Some people call that type of power 'snap'. Some Okinawan karate styles describe it as 'chinkuchi' or ki striking. As I understand it, it's simply a combination of all those striking elements I mention above. Obviously some manifest the speed and relaxation aspects more, particularly if they are smaller and can move quicker. The ideal ratio is different for everyone, but the goal is to move whatever mass you possess at the optimum rate of speed while having sufficient weapon density/concentration and strength to punch THROUGH the target with hopefully some type of rotational force.

You hit on all the same points that I would as well. As you clearly stated there is much to have what I call true power behind your strikes. Many fail to see this.

Yes teaching power is the first step but to many focus only on this and fail at all the other detail that would take their power to the next level. That is what I was trying to point out. Power without control training really does not get you power.

It may be that the word control is not being taken in the same context that I am thinking of when control is said. Not by you but by other.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You hit on all the same points that I would as well. As you clearly stated there is much to have what I call true power behind your strikes. Many fail to see this.

Yes teaching power is the first step but to many focus only on this and fail at all the other detail that would take their power to the next level. That is what I was trying to point out. Power without control training really does not get you power.

It may be that the word control is not being taken in the same context that I am thinking of when control is said. Not by you but by other.

What sort of control are you refering to?
Sean

 

[Blade96]

Wow, have i started a debate? lol

btw I train for self defense, but not only for that. For personal development as well. In all areas. And also because I love the Shotokan way of life.

So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Wow, have i started a debate? lol

btw I train for self defense, but not only for that. For personal development as well. In all areas. And also because I love the Shotokan way of life.

So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.

Showing control is also great for staying out of prison.:ultracool
sean

 

[dancingalone]

So, we train to deliver - but also to have control. My BB's taught me its not enough just to be able to strike a solid blow. Also must have control. This was taught to me very early - as in last year.

<shrugs> It's not mutually exclusive. One develops both power and control AT THE SAME TIME.

I just dislike the 'control over power' martial arts cliche since it seems to assume even the average martial artist will have Zen-like precision in the heat of a wild melee. In my experience, most if not all black belts in the sundry systems have a good measure of control. They can generally target something and hit it with a handful of hand or foot techniques. They're great at low-high paddle drills. However, a much lower percentage of these people can hit their target with EXPLOSIVE power, even when the target is unmoving. To me that suggests a training paradigm emphasizing hard hitting might be called for.