pulling your punches

[skinters]

now im not advocating full ungloved blows to the head, but i find it annoying when you doing a drill etc and your partner stops five inches from your face.say you working on palm strikes for example,i tell those i train with to make contact,and at the very least do what i call feather the face.ive even resorted to grabbing someones arm and slap they hand against my face quite hard and say there you go,like that if you dont you cheating me and you .

ive noticed some just dont like the contact and its got to be the one most annoying thing about training,i suppose its something you have to get used to,and when someone makes contact its hard for the ego not to get ruffled,but i feel you have to get passed all that and desensitise yourself to it by gradualy making more contact to the point where you know you have been hit, but then go on to find ways of making sure you defend more in that area, instead of getting upset over it .

i rambling again nonsensical style haha.

 

[hpulley]

I know what you mean. Sometimes we're doing light randorii and my opponent kiai's and stops fighting and I ask why and they say I was going to hit you in the head but they weren't even close! I don't want a shiner or a broken nose but jeez, slap me or graze my jaw or something!

 

[almost a ghost]

A lot of people, and schools for that matter, forget that when you are learning to fight you are suppose to hit and get hit. LOL

One thing I like to do is just to drop my arms mid excercise to see what the person does when I feel they are getting timid and then when they drop their arms or don't make contact I smack their chest (not hard, but the point of making contact) and ask them why they didn't hit me. After a few times they get the point LOL.

 

[mook jong man]

now im not advocating full ungloved blows to the head, but i find it annoying when you doing a drill etc and your partner stops five inches from your face.say you working on palm strikes for example,i tell those i train with to make contact,and at the very least do what i call feather the face.ive even resorted to grabbing someones arm and slap they hand against my face quite hard and say there you go,like that if you dont you cheating me and you .

ive noticed some just dont like the contact and its got to be the one most annoying thing about training,i suppose its something you have to get used to,and when someone makes contact its hard for the ego not to get ruffled,but i feel you have to get passed all that and desensitise yourself to it by gradualy making more contact to the point where you know you have been hit, but then go on to find ways of making sure you defend more in that area, instead of getting upset over it .

i rambling again nonsensical style haha.

Can you at least get them to hit you in the chest , i think the only difference when hitting the head in training and on the street is about half an inch .

You should be able to feel the wind from the strike hit you in the face . Try explaining to these people that the way you train is the way you will fight and under the stress of an adrenaline dump you will probably fight a lot worse than the way you train .

These people are developing a false sense of their own range and it's quite possible in a real situation against a real attacker they will do exactly what they have done in training thousands of times that is pull their strike back half a foot from the target and not get into proper range .

If they are really against pulling back strikes half an inch from your face make them hit you in the chest , generally speaking if you can hit the chest you can get the head and in a real fight its not too much of an adjustment to make under the stress of a real situation .

On the other hand if you are used to fighting a half a foot out of range it is naive to assume that under combat stress you will suddenly start fighting at the correct range , its just not going to happen in my opinion .

 

[Jimi]

Myself & training partners in the past, hit some during drills. Usually a stiff palm to the shoulder or the chest. The more combative the drill the more likely we would use some form of gear. Not the "Lets pad up with the FIST helmet & go full bore" but the light head gear to protect from dotting the other guys eye or buttoning his lip. Especially if it is a sensitivity drill, we expect a lot more control without the use of gear, the point being the attribute of sensitivity being developed, not "Hit me! Don't Be Gay In The Kwoon, Hit Me!" If it is more for power, we hit focus mitts, a heavy bag or a Mook. Wing Chun & Jun Fan have powerfull centerline punches although they don't need to be blasted full force into your partner every drill. If the strikes are trained that hard every drill, imagine the reluctence of a partner knowing you may snap a full speed, full force Bil Gee into their throat, or eyes or blasting a straight blast right up their nose saying "This is needed for the street. Come On MAN UP!" They will not train with you. Or they will say, "Okay, I go first" then drop you as best they can on the first drill. DRILLS OVER! WHO IS NEXT? Your Intructor (Sifu) should already have an exceptable force guide in place, Example: In Chi Sao, just a tap or touching the target is good for showing openings or weakness in defense. In Sparring, make an audible thump to your opponents target to a degree that is exceptable to the conditions = Gear or no gear. If in training I stop my straight blast near your nose and don't punish you pysically then YOU (Hypothetical) when the drill is set for you to clear my defense and have me at your mercy and you blast me for real, the drill will be over. Usually with my Instructor yelling "Jimi what happened!?" I would respond "I went as hard as he did SIR!" I understand applying technique a realistic a possible, but understand how you are working with a partner. Find a partner who likes as much contact as you. Sorry if I sounded like a preacher, the thread kinda sounded like " They don't hit me right, hit me harder, we are badasses, hit harder, I have no use for the weak. No mercy, mercy is for the weak." Just my 2 cents. PEACE JIMI

 

[JadeDragon3]

If you don't get hit in the head or face then how the hell are ya supposed to know how to react on the street when someone hits you for real. I feel it is essential to hit to the head and face when training otherwice you may freeze in real life when hit.

 

[Jimi]

JadeDragon3, Am I to take your response that all training is to be a street simulation? I understand that there should be a realistic aspect to training, but do you really feel training is to be an all out street fight?

 

[KamonGuy2]

now im not advocating full ungloved blows to the head, but i find it annoying when you doing a drill etc and your partner stops five inches from your face.say you working on palm strikes for example,i tell those i train with to make contact,and at the very least do what i call feather the face.ive even resorted to grabbing someones arm and slap they hand against my face quite hard and say there you go,like that if you dont you cheating me and you .

ive noticed some just dont like the contact and its got to be the one most annoying thing about training,i suppose its something you have to get used to,and when someone makes contact its hard for the ego not to get ruffled,but i feel you have to get passed all that and desensitise yourself to it by gradualy making more contact to the point where you know you have been hit, but then go on to find ways of making sure you defend more in that area, instead of getting upset over it .

i rambling again nonsensical style haha.

Very true. In Kamon, students start off without making much contact, but by the time they are high level, it is full contact. If in a drill a hand or kick doesn't make contact it is frowned upon. I am not talking about hitting as hard as you can each time, but a palm to the face should have some sort of contact otherwise you might not be in the right range

As I say to my students - if you don't touch peoples face, how do you know you would 'get him' in the street!!

Saying that there arts like Choi Kwang Do where it is forbidden to touch people at all!

Remember that you won't increase your hitting power by hitting a person but it will help you get ibnto good positions and understand body mechanics. If I hit a stamping palm to someones chin, their head goes back. This means that I have to work around that. If you don't make contact with the first palmstrike, the head doesn't move back and you are deluding yourself into thinking the person will remain stationary throughout your fight!!!

 

[JadeDragon3]

JadeDragon3, Am I to take your response that all training is to be a street simulation? I understand that there should be a realistic aspect to training, but do you really feel training is to be an all out street fight?

Did I say that? No of course training shouldn't be an all out street fight. You are totally twisting my words and assuming things that are there. What I said was that training should be done with contact to the head and or face area because when put in a real situation you may not know how to react. As for the amount of contact that is up to you and how advanced and skilled you are. I personally believe in medium contact, not hard and not light contact but medium contact.

I like to tell the people I spar that I'll go as hard as you go. I'll let them set the pace and go from there. If I think they or we are going to hard I'll say something.

 

[Jimi]

Cool. Now I feel I have a better understanding of your opinion. But I don't feel I twisted your words around at all. I asked a question man. Because I felt your statement left me thinking something I don't agree with. Your Statement in part said "How the hell are ya supposed to know how to react on the street when someone hits you for real" That simply lead me to believe you felt that in training people should learn to take a punch like I learned in the street in 3rd grade. I was not trying to belittle your statement at all. trying to clarify what you meant. Now I got it.

 

[JadeDragon3]

okay. Yeah, by training full contact I believe your only going to end up hurting your partner or yourself. Training is supposed to be the time to try new techniques to see if they work and also to check your timing and skill. If going full contact I don't believe you will be able to have a chance to evaluate the technique very well. As you get the techniques down you may then want to speed your timing up and go a little bit harder contact.

 

[skinters]

when it comes to the question of not having anyone who will train with you because of you having more of a contact thinking ethic well,if you want to get better and reach your full potential not having a few who wont train with you is a small price to pay,im not talking about full contact,but like jade says moderate but still contact non the less .

now there is a difference if you feel your getting hit because the other guy is taking the p*ss, but between those you trust the contact should be such that you KNOW its been made, and should shake you up a little.

its becoming harder for me to find good training partners this way,and i have found in a class of 20 you be lucky to find 3-4 who dont mind this way of training and can see the beneifits in the long term to your skill level.

 

[JadeDragon3]

its becoming harder for me to find good training partners this way,and i have found in a class of 20 you be lucky to find 3-4 who dont mind this way of training and can see the beneifits in the long term to your skill level.

I agree. It's hard to find the right person to train with. They either want to go all out full contact or don't want to get hit at all. Going full contact is a good way to get hurt and then you won't be able to train at all.

 

[Jimi]

Skinters, JadeDragon3, I agree whole heartedly. Contact should be made, at differing levels depending. I simply do not like people who use the excuse "This is what you will deal with in the streets" while peppering a training partner at will because the drill give them the advantage of knowing the sequence. When a drill goes to a level of more resistence it will become more alive and you may get popped. So be it. Just gear up if you like or no gear if that is your prefference. Some like it hardcore and some don't. If you understand then training can be of benefit. If you like to just tag others in class whenever you can to be Badass, then you detract from the training. If you feel it must be all out all the time, then take that attitude out to southeast DC (Or Detroit, Chicago, Harlem, Watts- what have you.) and you will cetainly know how a real punch will feel, or a brick, or trash can or a bullet. If you grew up in or near any rough violent community, you already know such concequences, so don't bring it into the training hall (Kwoon) so egarly.

 

[skinters]

I agree. It's hard to find the right person to train with. They either want to go all out full contact or don't want to get hit at all. Going full contact is a good way to get hurt and then you won't be able to train at all.

a good training partner like that is worth they weight in gold,someone you can trust and is not in it just to get a few cheap shots in.

i say to my partner,look make contact with the open palm for instance,the only thing with this is that open hands can result in a finger in the eye, ive had this on occasion accidents do happen,but ive yet to hear of anyone blinded like this but it can make you eyes water haha ,but again its rare, so with that i keep my strikes open hand (slap)to the jawline,no risk of injury and you can make decent contact when practiced right .

but yeah a good traning partner who is on the same wave length is not easy to find .

 

[skinters]

Skinters, JadeDragon3, I agree whole heartedly. Contact should be made, at differing levels depending. I simply do not like people who use the excuse "This is what you will deal with in the streets" while peppering a training partner at will because the drill give them the advantage of knowing the sequence. When a drill goes to a level of more resistence it will become more alive and you may get popped. So be it. Just gear up if you like or no gear if that is your prefference. Some like it hardcore and some don't. If you understand then training can be of benefit. If you like to just tag others in class whenever you can to be Badass, then you detract from the training. If you feel it must be all out all the time, then take that attitude out to southeast DC (Or Detroit, Chicago, Harlem, Watts- what have you.) and you will cetainly know how a real punch will feel, or a brick, or trash can or a bullet. If you grew up in or near any rough violent community, you already know such concequences, so don't bring it into the training hall (Kwoon) so egarly.

jim

ive heard that saying, this is what you will get on the streets,and yes even if you go light there is still the chance you will get tagged by accident .

glady and from my experience the type of person you discribe is by large quite rare ,and id maybe go as far as say every class has, or will get one with that kind of ethic.

im looking for contact wich by no means full,but just let your partner know that his defence has been compromised byt at least making that contact light,firm or whatever.

at the end of the day im more intrested in people reactions to the contact more than anything else ..its like when you being verbally attacked and it shocks you ....how does it affect you ? .

 

[JadeDragon3]

I feel that you should go light to med when learning a new technique so you know how the mechanics of it work and get the timing down then when you have the technique down pat enough you can start to go harder contact. Otherwise I feel you don't actually learn the technique to the best of your ability.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

This is an interesting phenomena.

Many places I've visited have lots of people that I see them practicing and they just pat each other. In our practice, we gradually increase the contact and teach control, yet after a while, we're bangin'.

The thing is that many people are afraid to hit each other. This fear of contact can have unfortunate side effects that brake the momentum pf strikes when they might be really needed.

Yet know that it is not a very commercial way to teach, since the realities of violence are weathered and enjoyed more readily bu those with Warrior Spirit...

and Warrior Spirit is not that common.

I do the same and let them hit me so that they see it is fun. And it really doesn't hurt; they are programmed from childhood to whine and cry at every ache and pain. So they have to be reprogrammed.

Here is the thing.

Has anyone seen a dog or a cat being kicked? It is an uncomfortable thought for many yet it illustrates a point.

The dogs just yelp once, if at all (big dogs can take it better), yet after a few seconds they are alright and in full physical capacity.

THEY WEIGHT A FRACTION OF WHAT WE WEIGHT! Even big dogs have the weight of maybe a 10 year old, 60 lbs. up to 100 lbs.

We weight double and much more than that and we can't take it?

It is the attitude to survive and the realization that the pain isn't enough to stop you. Your fear and programming stops you.

Boxers get the crap beat out of them, and they keep going! Of course too much will inflict permanent injury, yet a bit o' pain is a small price to pay for the amount of skill and fun you will have!

Of course, only insane people with Warrior Spirit enjoy the training enough to keep doing it for years...

Juan M. Mercado

P.S. According to the DSM-IV, we are insane, you know...

 

[Brian King]

Skinters wrote

now im not advocating full ungloved blows to the head, but i find it annoying when you doing a drill etc and your partner stops five inches from your face.say you working on palm strikes for example,i tell those i train with to make contact,and at the very least do what i call feather the face.ive even resorted to grabbing someones arm and slap they hand against my face quite hard and say there you go,like that if you dont you cheating me and you .

ive noticed some just dont like the contact and its got to be the one most annoying thing about training,i suppose its something you have to get used to,and when someone makes contact its hard for the ego not to get ruffled,but i feel you have to get passed all that and desensitise yourself to it by gradualy making more contact to the point where you know you have been hit, but then go on to find ways of making sure you defend more in that area, instead of getting upset over it .

i rambling again nonsensical style haha.

There are many different kinds of fear associated with contact during training and it is often not limited to those new to martial arts but also to long time practitioners. It is interesting work and useful to learn to recognize what fears are at play even while those suffering from the fears may be unaware of them. Forcing your training partners to confront these fears without preparation can set back their training so should be avoided. It is true that the lack of contact during a drill or exercise that requires contact can be frustrating and annoying and can be considered robbery it is also true that it can be considered an opportunity for some honest training and reflection. It is important in living as well as during combat to be able to recognize frustration and annoyance, anger and pride, ego and pity as the emotions build with-in us and to learn to control and cleanse them as needed before they become overwhelming. Frustrations during training are excellent means of learning these skills so rather than desensitizing I have found much greater benefit through becoming more sensitive to what is actually happening within (both of my training partner/opponent and myself)

If the fear your training partner is experiencing is the ‘fear of harming/hurting their training partner fear’ this is easily confronted and understood and once understood easy to overcome. By slowing down the training, and using push instead of hit. The difference in this case between a push and a hit is where the acceleration/follow thru begins, with a hit the acceleration begins before contact and with a push the acceleration begins after contact has been made. This method allows both partners to continue to learn from the drill while both work on different aspects of it. Receiving and giving contact can then be honestly studied. As the student gets more used to pushing contact then the pushes can gradually (very gradually for some) become harder and deeper strikes.

Often though the fear of hurting a partner is often voiced there is a deeper fear. It is often a two fold fear. The first honest fear is what if I make contact but it doesn’t work or hurt my opponent, what if I am weak or ineffective. This fear can make someone strike weakly or avoid contact all together under the excuse of wanting to do no harm when in fact it is the fear of not being able to do harm that is holding back the student. This fear is also usually easy to deal with by again working slow and building up the level of contact and adding some tempering drills. The second part of the ol’ what if it doesn’t work or I am ineffective fear is the ‘permission fear’. This is the fear that says if I hit you hard then that means I give you permission to hit me hard. This giving permission to have another show and demonstrate your weakness is not easy to give but the freedom received by giving the permission can take the training to new levels. Again by working slow, adding tempering along with teaching how to absorb and deal with strikes that do get in starts to dissolve the fear.

One other thing that I have learned witnessed and experienced with-in both I and others is the greed that then comes when one no longer fears contact, there comes an urge to experience more and more contact in the training. This feeds pride and ego but is just another phase that one goes thru in training if one is aware and sensitive and soon settles down.

Regards
Brian King

 

[skinters]

brian .

i also see the holding back as a way of thinking if i dont hit him he wont hit me ,in the way of treating others as you would like to be treated,if you know what i mean .as for forcing your training patner to face his fears,well its not as if im asking to go full out wich,unless your fully protected is just not going to happen .i tell my training partners its ok make contact,palm to the jaw line but not push through ,i feel with pushing through you leave the arm hanging there extended wich can lead to bad habits,i made a post somewhere about leaving the hand in,wich you have to do learn the technique but over time can create bad habits imho.

overall when it comes to making contact i dont see it as a big deal but if not dealt with can lead to bad habits,a stopping of the flow of action.

i do feel aswell that there are those who play martial art and i just hope that those who paractice this way do so for fun and not for real application.