Professions - A Three or Four Beer Discussion

[Dr John M La Tourrette]

The short time I spent practicing Krav Maga was a noontime class. It was a very mixed crowd including a lot of firefighters and police officers. They were generally a lot of fun to work with. They were strong, physically fit (especially the firefighters), not afraid of contact, businesslike and mostly pretty serious about what they were doing. The firefighters tended to be very strong, not body builder muscular, but "I carry heavy stuff around for a living" powerful - wiry, brick shaped or slab sided. Many of the cops looked like they spent a lot of time with the weights. The real differences were in approach.

The police officers almost always hesitated just a fraction before mixing it up. You could almost see the Threat Assessment and Use of Force libraries getting loaded. They tended to make themselves look bigger and use more psychological signals for taking up space and dominating the situation.

The firefighters could be relied on to get right to the point and start swinging (or twisting, or throwing, or kicking, or stabbing... ). They didn't expand the and try to intimidate the same way.

I'm pretty confident of the accuracy of the observations at least for that sample. What's not so clear is the reason for it. My wild-*** guess is that it's the nature and culture of the work.

A police officer has to be able to fight. No doubt about it. But he or she has to "go cloaked in the Majesty of the Law". Psychological command is most important. A cop who has to rely on his or her fists all the time is deficient in very important skills. And the questions "Is there a threat?" and "What's the appropriate sized can of whoop-*** to open for the occasion?" always have to be answered.

A firefighter's job is certainly complicated and highly technical. But by the time he or she shows up a lot of things are already settled. There is a problem. If there's a threat it's one that isn't going to be settled by command or intimidation. It's (mostly) a physical situation that has to be dealt with on the physical level.

Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.

Thank you Mr. Ellner for a very interesting, informative and full of knowledge post.

I loved your comparison between a firefighter's job and a police officer's job.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

 

[jks9199]

An old joke but one that still rings true today also makes a point.
Q. Why did God invent firefighters?
A. Even cops need heroes

H'mmm....

For some reason, I seem to recall that joke running the other way!

 

[tellner]

Thanks Dr. La Tourette. It's always nice when the observations strike a chord with other people.

 

[Brian King]

For some reason, I seem to recall that joke running the other way!

LOL Likely, if I remember the first time I heard it, it had something to do with Jarheads and Squids but heck all I know is that even heroes need heroes.

Brian King

 

[Big Don]

This is a fascinating discussion. While I have nothing to add, please continue.

 

[thardey]

There was one guy, I later found out that he was a DT instructor and SWAT team member, who got really aggressive and liked to bowl people over. He was big and confident, so it usually worked. When people didn't give way he was at a bit of a loss as to what to do. Then again, most people are basically lazy. Find something that works and stick with it until you have to change.

It's funny, I hadn't even thought of the FBI SWAT team member in our dojo until you brought it up. He's in a whole other category. Normally doing office work, until he gets recruited for a raid. More like a soldier. He's really good at using his voice, both for de-escalation, and a sudden rebel yell that makes you freeze in your tracks. Once he's in "fight mode" (read: in the dojo) there's no hesitation, and his first instinct is also to bowl you over. But if you don't move, he easily switches into "fight dirty mode".

His motto is: Surprise, Aggressiveness, and Violence of Action (with a failsafe breach.)

 

[redfang]

Typically, if there is any indication that crowd or subject control wil be required at a fire scene, our fire department calls us and stages until we have the scene secure. There aren't a lot of situations where our fire personnel have to engage in physical confrontation. Now almost all of them are in excellent shape, and some of them train in various martial arts. Overall, our firefighters are in better shape, on the average, than most of our officers. But it is the police who do almost all of the subject control work. A lot of our officers don't train in any kind of martial art, self-defense etc. It is almost all at each individual's discretion. Many just rely on their presence and verbal skills, if those fail, they break out the pepper spray, taser etc.

 

[jks9199]

Typically, if there is any indication that crowd or subject control wil be required at a fire scene, our fire department calls us and stages until we have the scene secure. There aren't a lot of situations where our fire personnel have to engage in physical confrontation. Now almost all of them are in excellent shape, and some of them train in various martial arts. Overall, our firefighters are in better shape, on the average, than most of our officers. But it is the police who do almost all of the subject control work. A lot of our officers don't train in any kind of martial art, self-defense etc. It is almost all at each individual's discretion. Many just rely on their presence and verbal skills, if those fail, they break out the pepper spray, taser etc.

Of course your firefighters are in better shape than the cops... And this actually is something that pisses me off a bit.

Many professional fire departments now require the fire fighters to spend a certain amount of each shift in exercise, unless the department is seriously understaffed, or they are literally swamped with calls.

Police departments often allow officers to work out, if they take the time a couple of times a year to participate in a PT test, often on a day off, and if there is sufficient staffing for coverage.

Then, there's the issue of sleep... Cops work shifts, and are not permitted to sleep on duty. Many cops work rotating shifts, as well as have court or training demands on days off. Firefighters are permitted to sleep on duty, whatever shift they may be working. Sleep deprivation is shown to have serious, detrimental effects on health and function... and, just about every day, we're sending cops out to work the streets on an hour or two of sleep, which they got during the daytime.

Beyond those bare-bones issues of fitness & health... few departments have any serious, on going in-service defensive tactics training. Most shoot several times a year; many cops voluntarily spend hours on the range, at their own cost... but won't spend 40 hours in a year practicing DT or martial arts. We've got great tools today, but there's no way to get around the simple fact that, at some point, a cop's got to lay hands on someone and take them into custody -- whether they want to go or not!

(And, yes, I openly admit that I don't work out enough, myself!)

 

[Adept]

takes us 10 to 15 minutes to respond and get on scene and things are WAY beyond being "settled".

I think the difference is in the 'micro' decisions to be made.

If you need to open a door, then you knock it down. If you need to put out a fire, then you put water (or whatever) on it, until it's out. Those small, instant decisions have less variables. 'This is the situation, and this is how I'm going to deal with it".

A cop who gets into a violent situation has to assess whether the person is 'all talk', or if they are serious. Whether than can talk the person down, or if words are just wasted air. They have to decide if they should be reaching for their batton, their pepper spray, or their gun, or if they can handle the situation with bare hands. Theres a lot more that has to be considered, instantly, in that moment before action is taken.

Of course your firefighters are in better shape than the cops.

A friend of mine is a very fit person in the army reserve. They occaisionally have contests with the fire department (football, distance running, triathalons, that sort of thing) and the firemen almost always smash the soldiers. I've worked with some of the forestry industry firemen and alpine rescue teams, and these guys are super fit.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I've worked with some of the forestry industry firemen and alpine rescue teams, and these guys are super fit

They have to be... they're using it pretty much every day and it's a matter of life and death. For others it is a matter of life and death so they need it have it when the time comes... but it's not put into practice every day

 

[Guardian]

Not necessarily. My city dispatches the fire department for absolutely every 911 call, regardless of the nature of the call.

The fire department carries a lot of specialized tools and training that police and paramedics don't have, such as cardiac defib units. They are also the only responders that have specialized gear such as water rescue equipment, and the tools to get in to otherwise inaccessible places, such as getting through locked doors or wrecked cars...such as the jaws of life. For my area...which is home to a number of ponds and marshlands, three separate 6-lane highways, and two major business districts...having someone on scene right away with these skills makes a big different for the safety of the folks that live or do business here.

My city (50,000+ people, 16.5 square miles) has five fire stations, built so each street and neighborhood can be reached quickly....as such, here, firefighters are often the first report to the scene of an emergency call. They face the same variables that the other first responders do...but with different tools.

Are you saying that a 911 operator gets a domestic dispute call and you all send the firemen to that address, come on now, I've worked law enforcement for most of my life and have never seen a fireman be dispatched to an armed robbery or a domestic dispute or a burgarly in progress until after the fact and the need might be there.

So I still stand by my point that when Fire personnel are dispatched they have some sort of point of reference as you mentioned, car crash, cardiac arrest, have some reference that they respond to in comparison to the other portion of this.