Professions - A Three or Four Beer Discussion

[tellner]

The short time I spent practicing Krav Maga was a noontime class. It was a very mixed crowd including a lot of firefighters and police officers. They were generally a lot of fun to work with. They were strong, physically fit (especially the firefighters), not afraid of contact, businesslike and mostly pretty serious about what they were doing. The firefighters tended to be very strong, not body builder muscular, but "I carry heavy stuff around for a living" powerful - wiry, brick shaped or slab sided. Many of the cops looked like they spent a lot of time with the weights. The real differences were in approach.

The police officers almost always hesitated just a fraction before mixing it up. You could almost see the Threat Assessment and Use of Force libraries getting loaded. They tended to make themselves look bigger and use more psychological signals for taking up space and dominating the situation.

The firefighters could be relied on to get right to the point and start swinging (or twisting, or throwing, or kicking, or stabbing... ). They didn't expand the and try to intimidate the same way.

I'm pretty confident of the accuracy of the observations at least for that sample. What's not so clear is the reason for it. My wild-*** guess is that it's the nature and culture of the work.

A police officer has to be able to fight. No doubt about it. But he or she has to "go cloaked in the Majesty of the Law". Psychological command is most important. A cop who has to rely on his or her fists all the time is deficient in very important skills. And the questions "Is there a threat?" and "What's the appropriate sized can of whoop-*** to open for the occasion?" always have to be answered.

A firefighter's job is certainly complicated and highly technical. But by the time he or she shows up a lot of things are already settled. There is a problem. If there's a threat it's one that isn't going to be settled by command or intimidation. It's (mostly) a physical situation that has to be dealt with on the physical level.

Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.

 

[thardey]

Interesting . . .

Thinking back to two guys I know -- one is a firefighter, and one is a cop - I don't know either of them well, but we've been in a couple of conversations. The firefighter went with me as a chaperone for a bunch of middle-school kids that we took to Italy, so I got to work with him in authority/protect mode. Same thing that you noticed - very alert, very aware of his surroundings, and at any given instant he's already decided what to do with it. You could count on him to be ready in a heartbeat. However, he had a terrible time keeping the street vendors away from the kids. He didn't have the "presence" required to keep them away. That was my job -- I had been to Italy before, and managed to dress relatively Italian. For some reason all I had to do was to make eye contact, and the vendors would simply melt into the background.

Next spring I will be doing the same thing, but this time with the cop, and we will be visiting our friends across the pond. I'm sure the vendors and such will be different in the U.K., but I'm interested to see how he deals with these types of situations. From the pre-trip conversations we've had, he definitely carries himself with more authority, but not ego. Just confidence.

Another physical job to throw in the pile would be contractors. I've been around a lot of construction workers of various types. Same thing, their build reflects it, and their attitude is often one of "pass the buck" to whoever is in charge, whether they did right or wrong. If they get a compliment, their reply is: "I just followed the plans", and if they get yelled at, the answer is the same. Either way, they're only interested in getting the job done, but only the insecure ones demand attention for it. The experienced ones just sort of "keep their head down," whatever happens.

 

[Tez3]

Thardey, we don't really have vendors that bother you here, a few places have beggars but begging is illegal so get moved on. If your friend hasn't been to the UK before the policing will certainly be a surprise to him, it always is to Americans.Here in North Yorkshire they walk up to any incident in what appears to be a slow manner then say "Naw then" ( it's a local greeting).British police officers rely a lot on talking, that's not to say you should mistake their politeness for weakness though.
If you are around my way ( Catterick nr Richmond North Yorkshire) come by and see us (train if you fancy), we have an MMA show in April so if you around come as my guests. We'll introduce to that other 'type' the British squaddie, be very interesting to see what you make of the British army lol!

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have noticed some of the same things that thardey did. Some of the police that I know seem to have their chest out and use an “appearance” of intimidation much of the time. The look they give you and the way they stand says that they are ready to do bodily harm if necessary, while the firefighters seem confident they do not give off the same aura.

On the other hand I know a few police that look and act anything but intimidating. They seem to know that they can handle themselves but know they can also talk their way out of most bad situations.

Both groups are the take charge types of people, but are more that willing to take directions when learning a martial art

 

[Drac]

The police officers almost always hesitated just a fraction before mixing it up. You could almost see the Threat Assessment and Use of Force libraries getting loaded. They tended to make themselves look bigger and use more psychological signals for taking up space and dominating the situation.

A police officer has to be able to fight. No doubt about it. But he or she has to "go cloaked in the Majesty of the Law". Psychological command is most important. A cop who has to rely on his or her fists all the time is deficient in very important skills. And the questions "Is there a threat?" and "What's the appropriate sized can of whoop-*** to open for the occasion?" always have to be answered.

.

Ohhhhhh brother, did you say a mouthful...Tried to rep you but couldn't..

 

[jks9199]

A police officer has to be able to fight. No doubt about it. But he or she has to "go cloaked in the Majesty of the Law". Psychological command is most important. A cop who has to rely on his or her fists all the time is deficient in very important skills. And the questions "Is there a threat?" and "What's the appropriate sized can of whoop-*** to open for the occasion?" always have to be answered.

A firefighter's job is certainly complicated and highly technical. But by the time he or she shows up a lot of things are already settled. There is a problem. If there's a threat it's one that isn't going to be settled by command or intimidation. It's (mostly) a physical situation that has to be dealt with on the physical level.

Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.

Generally, if a firefighter gets to beat on someone, there's no doubt in the situation.

Cops do have to assess not only whether force is warranted, but how much... and then employ it decisively and effectively.

I'm curious, therefore... while there was that beat of hesitation, when the cops acted, was it that degree of commitment?

 

[newGuy12]

You could almost see the Threat Assessment and Use of Force libraries getting loaded.

Haha! Shouldn't those stay resident in memory?

I know a Detective on the police force personally. He told me about having to "extend the ki" at times. He told me that he has been surrounded by a crowd of people before. He said that at those times, IF the crowd of people were to turn on him suddenly, he would almost certainly be overcome.

Now, he told me that at those times, he would "extend the ki". He said that this was a way of letting everyone know to pay very close attention to him, and that he was in charge. It had to do with the way that he appeared to other people.

Now, He told me that I also "extend the ki" very well. I take him at his word. I have never worked in law enforcement, though. I have very little occasion to argue or fuss with people, but he did tell me this.

Yes, I think this is correct. Say you were trying to rescue people in a burning house, and someone accosted you. There would be no "threat assessment" or such thing. No. Out like a freaking light bulb the guy would have to go! Fast!

Also, I have seem some English police on the youtube videos. Once, this car was hijacked or something like that, perhaps stolen. Anyway, these police surrounded the car. The next thing,




BAM, BAM, BAM! Those guys started hammering that car with these sticks that they had. They flat out busted the glass out of that car. Dang near all of the glass, fast!

And once they started this, the man by the driver side went in through the busted glass there and pulled that driver out faster than you would believe. I wish that I could find that video there. I almost had an adrenaline drop just watching it happen on the clip. It was not a training clip. It was the real thing.

 

[fireman00]

...
A firefighter's job is certainly complicated and highly technical. But by the time he or she shows up a lot of things are already settled. There is a problem. If there's a threat it's one that isn't going to be settled by command or intimidation. It's (mostly) a physical situation that has to be dealt with on the physical level.

Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.

Mmmm I would disagree ... For example... we get dispatched for a possible structure fire called in by a neighbor who reports that there are occupants in the home... takes us 10 to 15 minutes to respond and get on scene and things are WAY beyond being "settled". Search and rescue, pulling hose lines, securing water source, setting up command, coordinating among divs... not close to settled. A second scenario... its 3pm on a Saturday... bunch of kids out on the lake ice skating when one of them falls through... or someone's Mom hits to the floor on Thanksgiving and we are paged out for a CPR in progress call.... car accidents, search/ rescue/ recovery for lost kids/ demntia ridden adults... goes on and on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not being a Police office or Fireman I am only guessing here but it could be more to do with the difference between the frequency of physical confrontation and (I can only speak for NY) the Laws of justification of the use of force that Police have to pay attention to that gives them that moment of hesitation to size up the situation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Ohhhhhh brother, did you say a mouthful...Tried to rep you but couldn't..

I have to agree with Drac here in that there is alot of truth in Tellner's origional post. Of course there are always exceptions!

 

[jks9199]

Mmmm I would disagree ... For example... we get dispatched for a possible structure fire called in by a neighbor who reports that there are occupants in the home... takes us 10 to 15 minutes to respond and get on scene and things are WAY beyond being "settled". Search and rescue, pulling hose lines, securing water source, setting up command, coordinating among divs... not close to settled. A second scenario... its 3pm on a Saturday... bunch of kids out on the lake ice skating when one of them falls through... or someone's Mom hits to the floor on Thanksgiving and we are paged out for a CPR in progress call.... car accidents, search/ rescue/ recovery for lost kids/ demntia ridden adults... goes on and on.

I hear what your saying... but there's a big difference between a raging fire and a raging person.

You can't intimidate a fire. (I know... I've tried!) You can't shock a fire into getting with the program.

And if you try to cuff a fire... all you get is hot handcuffs.

But a person... sometimes, you can intimidate them. Sometimes, you can make them "wake up" from a rage and get with the program. And you can handcuff people...

There are lot of technical and logistic and tactical considerations in fire fighting. And you do have to scale your response appropriately; you don't want to drop a helicopter load of water like you'd use on a forest fire on a barbecue grill gone a little wild or a kitchen grease fire.

But there is a difference in how firefighters and cops respond to and handle physical violence.

(And, of course, us cops don't get to sleep till they're hungry, then eat till they're sleepy like you guys do!:lol

 

[Guardian]

Mmmm I would disagree ... For example... we get dispatched for a possible structure fire called in by a neighbor who reports that there are occupants in the home... takes us 10 to 15 minutes to respond and get on scene and things are WAY beyond being "settled". Search and rescue, pulling hose lines, securing water source, setting up command, coordinating among divs... not close to settled. A second scenario... its 3pm on a Saturday... bunch of kids out on the lake ice skating when one of them falls through... or someone's Mom hits to the floor on Thanksgiving and we are paged out for a CPR in progress call.... car accidents, search/ rescue/ recovery for lost kids/ demntia ridden adults... goes on and on.

I will jump in here and say give my view on the intention of what was meant. When you get dispatched, isn't it usually a pre-determined call, your being dispatched to a kid falling through the ice, you know most of the particulars, thin ice situation, what will be needed for cold and such as that, you get dispatched to a house fire, you pretty much already know, hoses will have to be undone, equipment put on, not saying their are not variables in that job because I'm sure there is, but overall you know what is going to be expected in comparison to a cop showing up to a domestic dispute.

I'm just saying this is my view of what he meant with the words that were used.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'm a software developer by professions so usually my first reaction when things get nasty is "uh..oh... did I save a backup? Can I undo?" which is a little late to be thinking about that when you are about to be punched

 

[Carol]

The short time I spent practicing Krav Maga was a noontime class. It was a very mixed crowd including a lot of firefighters and police officers. They were generally a lot of fun to work with. They were strong, physically fit (especially the firefighters), not afraid of contact, businesslike and mostly pretty serious about what they were doing. The firefighters tended to be very strong, not body builder muscular, but "I carry heavy stuff around for a living" powerful - wiry, brick shaped or slab sided. Many of the cops looked like they spent a lot of time with the weights. The real differences were in approach.

The police officers almost always hesitated just a fraction before mixing it up. You could almost see the Threat Assessment and Use of Force libraries getting loaded. They tended to make themselves look bigger and use more psychological signals for taking up space and dominating the situation.

The firefighters could be relied on to get right to the point and start swinging (or twisting, or throwing, or kicking, or stabbing... ). They didn't expand the and try to intimidate the same way.

I'm pretty confident of the accuracy of the observations at least for that sample. What's not so clear is the reason for it. My wild-*** guess is that it's the nature and culture of the work.

A police officer has to be able to fight. No doubt about it. But he or she has to "go cloaked in the Majesty of the Law". Psychological command is most important. A cop who has to rely on his or her fists all the time is deficient in very important skills. And the questions "Is there a threat?" and "What's the appropriate sized can of whoop-*** to open for the occasion?" always have to be answered.

A firefighter's job is certainly complicated and highly technical. But by the time he or she shows up a lot of things are already settled. There is a problem. If there's a threat it's one that isn't going to be settled by command or intimidation. It's (mostly) a physical situation that has to be dealt with on the physical level.

Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.

Mmmm I would disagree ... For example... we get dispatched for a possible structure fire called in by a neighbor who reports that there are occupants in the home... takes us 10 to 15 minutes to respond and get on scene and things are WAY beyond being "settled". Search and rescue, pulling hose lines, securing water source, setting up command, coordinating among divs... not close to settled. A second scenario... its 3pm on a Saturday... bunch of kids out on the lake ice skating when one of them falls through... or someone's Mom hits to the floor on Thanksgiving and we are paged out for a CPR in progress call.... car accidents, search/ rescue/ recovery for lost kids/ demntia ridden adults... goes on and on.

I will jump in here and say give my view on the intention of what was meant. When you get dispatched, isn't it usually a pre-determined call, your being dispatched to a kid falling through the ice, you know most of the particulars, thin ice situation, what will be needed for cold and such as that, you get dispatched to a house fire, you pretty much already know, hoses will have to be undone, equipment put on, not saying their are not variables in that job because I'm sure there is, but overall you know what is going to be expected in comparison to a cop showing up to a domestic dispute.

I'm just saying this is my view of what he meant with the words that were used.

Not necessarily. My city dispatches the fire department for absolutely every 911 call, regardless of the nature of the call.

The fire department carries a lot of specialized tools and training that police and paramedics don't have, such as cardiac defib units. They are also the only responders that have specialized gear such as water rescue equipment, and the tools to get in to otherwise inaccessible places, such as getting through locked doors or wrecked cars...such as the jaws of life. For my area...which is home to a number of ponds and marshlands, three separate 6-lane highways, and two major business districts...having someone on scene right away with these skills makes a big different for the safety of the folks that live or do business here.

My city (50,000+ people, 16.5 square miles) has five fire stations, built so each street and neighborhood can be reached quickly....as such, here, firefighters are often the first report to the scene of an emergency call. They face the same variables that the other first responders do...but with different tools.

 

[newGuy12]

Haha! And if you ever need a door knocked down RIGHT THE #### NOW! The Fire Dept are the ones to do it! No hesitation! BAM!

 

[jks9199]

Not necessarily. My city dispatches the fire department for absolutely every 911 call, regardless of the nature of the call.

The fire department carries a lot of specialized tools and training that police and paramedics don't have, such as cardiac defib units. They are also the only responders that have specialized gear such as water rescue equipment, and the tools to get in to otherwise inaccessible places, such as getting through locked doors or wrecked cars...such as the jaws of life. For my area...which is home to a number of ponds and marshlands, three separate 6-lane highways, and two major business districts...having someone on scene right away with these skills makes a big different for the safety of the folks that live or do business here.

My city (50,000+ people, 16.5 square miles) has five fire stations, built so each street and neighborhood can be reached quickly....as such, here, firefighters are often the first report to the scene of an emergency call. They face the same variables that the other first responders do...but with different tools.

I'd be shocked if they really dispatched fire & rescue for every 911 call, any more than if they dispatched cops to every 911 call. There are many calls that have overlap (crashes, some medical emergencies -- for example, where I work, we actually get dispatched FIRST to certain medical calls because we carry AEDs, and some others), and both get dispatched. Depending on the nature of the call, the fire department will stage until we cops secure the scene. But there are plenty of 911-police calls that don't have any need for fire & rescue (burglary in progress, bank robbery, etc.), just like there are plenty of 911-fire & rescue that don't need cops (non-criminal injuries, lots of fires, etc.). In either case, either group can request the others if needed. For example, if I go on a burglary in progress, get there, and the burglar has slipped and broken the his leg... I'm calling for rescue. Or if the fire department responds, and needs cops for crowd or traffic control, or the person in need of EMS becomes combative or turns out to have been assaulted, or whatever, they call for cops. It's real simple; why tie up resources that might be needed elsewhere, just in case the cops need help opening a door or whatever.

What does happen in a lot of areas is that a firetruck gets dispatched on every EMS call; many places cross train all fire fighters as EMT-As or better, so they send the closest fire crew along with the ambulance.

 

[tellner]

Guardian, that's what I was trying to say. When firefighters get called they usually have a pretty good idea of the general shape of the situation. And they're not trying to convince the fire to give up peacefully or get the tree's attention and order it off the power line. The basic problem is a purely physical one. They may decide to stand there and watch that house burn down to the foundation, but by gum they're right on it

Jks, once they flipped the switch the current was flowing They had just as much commitment once they decided on a course of action. I did notice a little more of a tendency on the part of LEOs to use size whether physical or psychological. They were more likely than most others to square up and crowd on the way in. It's a standard "I'm the chief critter around here" tactic used by mammals all over the world. If you believe it most people will, too. And a lot of them will go along with it. The fight's half over before it really gets started.

There was one guy, I later found out that he was a DT instructor and SWAT team member, who got really aggressive and liked to bowl people over. He was big and confident, so it usually worked. When people didn't give way he was at a bit of a loss as to what to do. Then again, most people are basically lazy. Find something that works and stick with it until you have to change.

 

[Clapping_tiger]

Well, after reading this thread I am more excited than I was before I read this thread. A firefighter I know from a nearby city has asked to train with me and I said "if you're willing to make the drive you're more than welcome to join us." This should be fun

 

[Brian King]

Firefighters and law enforcement have different tools and different responsibilities and requirements. As stated above an officer’s presence is a tool that is often used. In fact on many departments it is an actual step on their use of force continuum. They are trained on how to maximize the effects even to as how they wear their uniform (many uniforms are designed with officer presence in mind and what the department wants to project, and not just uniforms but even the paint scheme on the squad cars i.e. black and white vs soft colored community policing paint) and even their speech is trained, tone and vocabulary to maximize their ‘officer’s presence. Firefighters and EMT’s also train for presence but with a different overall ummm target audience as firefighters need to calm and get information but the people they are usually dealing with want to be cooperative but are panicked and or injured perhaps worrying about others and in shock while law enforcement have to try to calm and get information from people who all to often do not want to or refuse to cooperate. There is of course overlap.

We can also notice that different type of missions require different kinds of tools. The physical duration of the job is much different for firefighters and police officers. The firefight may last hours while the physical confrontation an officer faces will just last minutes. Different body types have different advantages.

The mental stresses and tensions can also be very different between police and firefighters. Both see the best and worst in humanity and themselves perhaps even on a daily basis. After some experience on the job both know what to expect on the job and how to steel themselves, how to protect their psyches. For example if a firefighter is going to the rare car accident with vehicle burning they can know the scene that they may have to witness and the aftermath that the witnessing can bring. They can prepare themselves while on the way. An officer heading towards a domestic call can also prepare himself for the scene that will confront them. Generally once on scene the firefighter’s job may change in intensity, from very to little and back to very intense quickly but the job will not change that much, rescue and treat the victims knock down the flames. An officer’s job can also change in intensity very quickly but it often happens that his job role can also change in an instant. They can have separated the battling parents for instance and can be interviewing one or perhaps even made an arrest only to have a teenage (or younger) child or other family member or friend or neighbor start to fight or pulling weapons in order to rescue their parent/ family member/neighbor. The different stresses, the different durations of the stresses, the different intensities of the career stresses can often insert into a person’s psyche manifesting into physical or mental or spiritual tensions or combinations of so. These tensions and how individuals and organizations cope with them can often be seen by others and become recognizable as physical traits.

An old joke but one that still rings true today also makes a point.
Q. Why did God invent firefighters?
A. Even cops need heroes

Just about every call out that a firefighter gets people are happy that they are there. Just about every interaction with the public (on and off the job), even the tragic, are positive while with law enforcement the best they can hope for is 50% percent positive as some will be happy and relieved to see them and others will be disappointed and angry to see them all on the same call. Interaction with the public (on and off the job) their odds of positive interaction are lowered as much of the public has either personally or had a family member that had a less than positive encounter with law enforcement or authority.
After awhile an instinctive caution can be built up (you can easily see this also in people that come from harsh totalitarian societies) in all interactions, not just physical, with those that you do not know really well and trust completely.

LOL or as Tellner said with many fewer words

” Different jobs, different tools. It's interesting to see how it gets expressed through the body.”

Amen my friend, it is a valuable study.

Warmest regards
Brian King

 

[Carol]

What does happen in a lot of areas is that a firetruck gets dispatched on every EMS call; many places cross train all fire fighters as EMT-As or better, so they send the closest fire crew along with the ambulance.

Hmm...that does make more sense...I may have mixed up EMS and 911 in my mind when sitting through the (otherwise boring) meeting that didn't really come alive until the city started talking about the roles of the FD. There was a good 10-15 minutes of the meeting where I kept saying "No ****, they do that too?" to myself. :lol: