Principle(s) Of Power

[FearlessFreep]

I posted this on another forum but there seem to be more TKD practioners here so I thought I'd post it here, too.

I've been thinking about power generation, or how to get the most impact in a strike (hand or foot). What little I know of Taekwondo is that most of the strikes are fairly linear. The strike object (hand,foot, elbow, etc..) takes a fairly straight path from point to point, particularly from point of rest to point of impact. That makes sense to me.

What is more subtle and far more interesting is other was in which power is increased. A good example is spinning on the bottom foot. For example, a few weeks back we were working on a defensive side kick. It was a sidekick done from the front leg (assuming a fighting stance). What intrigued me about it was in what you did with the back leg. He taught that part of the kick was pivoting on your back foot, which essentially moves your whole body forward a few inches. Timed correctly with the extension of your foot, your're not just striking with the foot but with your body weight behind the foot, giving much more power. Working against pads, it seemed to make a big difference.

This seemed to work similarly with a lot of other stuff we've done where at the point of impact, everything comes together and locks in place and you get a lot more power at that point if it all comes together than you would if you don't. Like a roundhouse kick where your hips lock at the same moment that your leg fully extends as your pivot foot locks down; at that one instant of strike, your body should be in alignment to get the most impact on the target, not just from the strength and speed of your leg but from the way all the body parts work together. A lot of kicks seem to come to completion with the foot/knee/hips in alignment and getting the hips to lock into place at the momenbt of impact gives the kick extra 'zing'

Anyway, this kinda fascinates me and I was wondering if there was a general description of the principle(s) or philosophy behind how to generate power in TKD and maybe how it differs, philisophically or practically, from other MAs

 

[TigerWoman]

Sounds like you have alot of the principles down. Unusual for an orange belt, so you are ahead of the curve. Power also comes from the snap and of course, timing. It does all have to come together at once. I would not lock out your leg completely though, hurts your knees.

Strength training/conditioning is important too for power. For example, I have done alot of double sidekicks in repetition going for height. Makes it real easy to do a lift up side kick from the front leg through two boards, as you described. TW

 

[loki09789]

Form, form, form
Relaxed, minimal friction/resistance movement
Conditioning/fitness/explosive power
INTENT/FOCUS!

That is the basics as far as I see it.

If you have good mechanical and techincal form you will move efficiently and not waste/disperse energy/force.

If you can move with relaxed, fluid movements without getting in your own way, you won't stop the 'ball from rolling.'

If you have fit, toned, elastic muscles supported by a healthy nervous system, aerobic/anaerobic system you will twitch faster, react faster, recruit more muscle.

If you consciously apply all the others with confidence, conviction and will, you own the whole thing.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Sounds like you have alot of the principles down. Unusual for an orange belt, so you are ahead of the curve.

Thanks, I ask a lot of questions (in class or after class or in email) I'm highly analytical and introspective by nature, and a bit compulsive obsessive, but our sabommin puts a strong emphasis on using good technique to get speed and power. Plus I can go to class abuot five or six times a week so I can a lot of time to fine tune

Power also comes from the snap and of course, timing. It does all have to come together at once.

Right, I noticed a big difference between getting it *almost* right and getting it really right. The comparison I use is bowling. Almost perfect gets a score of 90, perfect gets a score of 300...big difference. Similarly, I notice that, in a round house kick for example, if my knee, foot, hip, and shoulder all snap into position at the same instant of contact with the target, I get a lot more power than if my hips are late or behind (or ahead).

The pivoting on the plant leg, though, to move the body forward to have more moving mass hitting the target, that one caught me by surprise and really impressed me. I'm amazed at how much subtley there is to this stuff.

I would not lock out your leg completely though, hurts your knees.

Right, good point With punches as well as kicks, we're being taught that you don't quite fully extend, for various safety reasons.

Strength training/conditioning is important too for power. For example, I have done alot of double sidekicks in repetition going for height. Makes it real easy to do a lift up side kick from the front leg through two boards, as you described.

I'm just trying to get myself in better shape, I do pushups, situps and streches in the morning, but also some time with a jump rope to strengthen my legs (especially my calves) and also to get used to the constant motion on the feet . The calves seem especially important because on aspect to generating power that we talk about is driving off the foot with the toes. This seems to be really good with front-side kicks (like the sidekick we are talking about); rather than lifting the whole leg as much with the hip flexor, you get an initial drive from the toes (and the calves.) More speed, easier to get the foot up, and better endurance as you down wear down your hip flexors as fast.

Probably obvious to all but just happened to be on my mind when you mentioned the front side kick again. I'm intrigued and fascinated by the very subtle mechanics in how this all workds

 

[FearlessFreep]

If you have good mechanical and techincal form you will move efficiently and not waste/disperse energy/force.

Boy does *that* get drilled into us in class

Thanks

 

[loki09789]

If you have good mechanical and techincal form you will move efficiently and not waste/disperse energy/force.

Boy does *that* get drilled into us in class

Thanks

"Because it's for your own good....now sit up straight. Eat your veggies, wear your rain coat. Do you have clean underwear on?...."

As my father said, you won't get it now, but you'll thank me later. Of course he was throwing me out of a boat to teach me how to swim at the time.....

 

[FearlessFreep]

"Because it's for your own good....now sit up straight. Eat your veggies, wear your rain coat. Do you have clean underwear on?...."

As my father said, you won't get it now, but you'll thank me later.

Don't get me wrong, I actually appreciate it (and try to 'get it', which is one reason I asked here). As a musician, I understand the imporance of repetition to build up the muscle memory so that the response is ingrained and automatic, but also the importance of doing it 'right' because it's usually faster and more efficient that way.

One other thing I've noticed is that a good technique tends to leave you at the end of the move in a very balanced position which is crucial to throwing the next technique. For example, throwing multiple kicks from the same foot without putting the foot down is not really possible unless you are balanced, and that means that your shoulders, hips, etc.. are properly aligned, Doing A and then B quickly and powerfully doesn't happen unless you end A balanced, in control, and in position to do B, and that doesn't happen unless you did A well; balanced and in control.

So for power, speed, and balance, I really believe in doing it right...and that requires practicing it right..a lot

Thanks

 

[Shu2jack]

Just remember to continue training and working at it so it starts to become second-nature. A lot of students I see are great technicians for forms, but when it comes to sparring or "self-defense" type stuff, they have trobule. Just remember that there is "form" techinque and "self-defense" techinque.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Our weekly classes are broken down as such.

Monday -
Forms - taegeuk forms. This to me is all about focus, concentration, balance, coordination, hand placement, foot placement, and art (not self-defense or combat)
Self Defense - various strikes and blocks and joint manipulations drawing from TKD and some Hapkido to defend against grabs, strikes, shoves, chokes, etc..(today we worked on wrist strikes against a punch or knife attack and also a double front-side side kick against (just above) the knee and then to the stomach or solar plexus to stop and incoming attacker. By 'double' I mean both kicks are done with the same foot without the foot coming down between kicks)

Wednesday - foot work and sparring. (olympic style) Sparring and sparring exercises plus a *lot* of footwork drills for balance, control, speed and stamina as you move around

Friday - conditioning. Just a lot of hard work.

Tuesday and Thursday are usually more free form and usually follow on the day before's work if needed or are more fine tuned toward particular points of interest to the students.

Saturday is similar to Tuesday and Thursday but even less structured and more apt to go into tangents based on student questions

With my current work schedule, I manage to attend five to six classes a week

Yes, in the self-defense portion there is a lot of attention to very fine movements, since we are dealing with fine points of control in joint manipulation and striking to cause pain and shock. Tuesday and Thursday are often good days for fine-tuning particular techniques as well.



Thanks to all for the feedback and encouragment

 

[Spookey]

Dear Fearless,

I incourage you to read Choi Hong Hi's "Theory of Power" which I believe is accesable at www.itf-information.com.

TAEKWON!
Spookey

PS...regarding your side kick drills and new knowledge of generating power based on the "grounded" leg...Not only does the pivot force the bodies mass forward, the grounded foot insures that the person kicking does not push his mass off of the target, but rather into the targer. Staying grounded is important...if you are not grounded you must seek alternative measures to insure the maximizing of mass (ie. spinning, flying (jumping in a forward motion), ect.)

 

[FearlessFreep]

I incourage you to read Choi Hong Hi's "Theory of Power"

Thanks

Staying grounded is important...if you are not grounded you must seek alternative measures to insure the maximizing of mass (ie. spinning, flying (jumping in a forward motion), ect.)

Hey, thanks. That's the kind of information I was looking for

 

[Adept]

Force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration.

The more weight behind a strike, and the faster you do it, the harder it hits.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration.

True, I keep teeling my kids that; and the impotance of proper technique, especially in generating speed.

However there are a lot of non-obvious (at least not-obvious to newbiews like me) biomechanical ways of increasing mass (like the use of 'grounding') and acceleration (like driving the toe up as opposed to just lifting the leg)

When I first started, someone I'd known a long time who had been studying martial arts (mostly what I think he called 'southern style kung fu??' as in southern China) was talking about a new approach he was learning that generated power from a different principle. He mentioned how TKD generated power as an example, and also a new approach he was learning, although I confess that I didn't really follow what he was saying (being *very* new) and didn't really follow up with him. I thinkit had something to do with the use of hip-rotation versus...something else..but...anyway...months later, the thought has come back wondering mostly about TKD spefically and also how it may differ (or be similar to) other arts.

Another example, I've heard something about ITF using a sine-wave movement in punches. We* don't do that but we do use a 'twist' motion in the punch at the final impact.

Thanks

Take care,


*By 'we' I just mean this is what my sabomnim has taught us in class

 

[loki09789]

Force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration.

The more weight behind a strike, and the faster you do it, the harder it hits.

There is a terminus to this idea though - along with the quality of the mass that you are using to create the speed. There is also the consideration of body make up - are you endo/exomorphic? Do you have a genetic tendency towards speed/strength or strength/speed?

If you are a 300 pound blubber head, you won't be as fast as the 300 lbs, power lifter because the majority of your 'mass' is lacking productive quality or 'recruitable mass' that contributes to speed generation.

 

[loki09789]

Force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration.

True, I keep teeling my kids that; and the impotance of proper technique, especially in generating speed.

However there are a lot of non-obvious (at least not-obvious to newbiews like me) biomechanical ways of increasing mass (like the use of 'grounding') and acceleration (like driving the toe up as opposed to just lifting the leg)

You are not increasing 'mass' when you talk about these biomechanical elements. You are actually talking about mechanical and technical proficiency ('grounding') and muscle recruitment/'will' (driving the toe).

If you were talking about lifting wts to increase muscle mass or talking about adding 'mass' to your strike by using ankle wts, or a weapon (baseball bat) that would be increasing 'mass.'

 

[FearlessFreep]

You are not increasing 'mass' when you talk about these biomechanical elements.

What I had in mind was techniques like spinning the plant foot so that you are moving your whole body mass into the strike as opposed to just your foot, it doesn't increase your mass, but does increase the mass into the target. I think...I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not or it's a matter of semantics

 

[loki09789]

You are not increasing 'mass' when you talk about these biomechanical elements.

What I had in mind was techniques like spinning the plant foot so that you are moving your whole body mass into the strike as opposed to just your foot, it doesn't increase your mass, but does increase the mass into the target. I think...I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with you or not or it's a matter of semantics

If you are 250 you are 250. The mass will not change if you are doing a front kick.

BUT, as you are describing it, you are going to get more muscle recruitment (therefore create more 'speed' more quickly) when you do the technique.

So, it could be considered better technical skill that increases the power because you are more effectively recruiting muscles quickly.

Looking at it from a performance/training point of view, the only variable that is changing in your example is the 'how' the delivery is being done, not the 'what' is delivering the power (mass is staying constant).

During class, I too use terms like 'getting more body into the strike' which can lead to the misconception that you are increasing 'mass.'

 

[Adept]

You are not increasing 'mass' when you talk about these biomechanical elements. You are actually talking about mechanical and technical proficiency ('grounding') and muscle recruitment/'will' (driving the toe).

Not quite. Going harder, or using the 'will' increases your speed, which in turn increases your power. Technical proficiency increases the effective mass you are striking with. For example: Imagine striking using only your fingers. Your arm and body does not move. Only the inertia of the fingers is used, so obviously the strike will be very weak.

However, the same strike done with a whole body movement will greatly increase the effective mass, and greatly increase its power.

Or another example: If you stomp on someone with one foot, it will hurt. If you jump into the air and land on them with one foot, it will generate much more power. Why? Because the amount of your body that is behind the strike is increased. Thats why a punch is more powerful when you use your hips and shoulders, or a kick is more powerful when you put your body into it.

Looking at it from a performance/training point of view, the only variable that is changing in your example is the 'how' the delivery is being done, not the 'what' is delivering the power (mass is staying constant).

But you do not use your entire body to deliver a strike. If you only use your arm, then only perhaps 25 pounds are being used. If you put your whole body into it, then you are utilising maybe 150 pounds. Your weight does remain constant, but the amount of mass you are effectively utilising through good technique changes.

 

[Marginal]

Another example, I've heard something about ITF using a sine-wave movement in punches. We* don't do that but we do use a 'twist' motion in the punch at the final impact.

Sine wave's more of a stepping motion associated with hand techniques rather than a hand motion itself. (There is some chambering etc in there, but...) Its main purpose is to add downward momentum to the hip twist which in theory increases the power of the technique.

You still need that hip twist to generate any meaningful power in your hand techniques though. Pretty much the same holds true for kicking. If you can get your hips into play, you're suddenly moving a lot more mass into your target.

 

[Spookey]

Dear all,

"Grounding", "driving", "hip-twist", and "sinewave" will not increase mass...to this extent you are correct!

However, "a 250lb man" does not necessarily have that same mass behind his technique. One uses proper body mechanics in order to maximize the amount of his (pre-existing) mass directed through the technique and into the target!

Even when executing a front snap kick from a parralell ready stance, it will not utilize as much pre-existing mass as executing the same technique from the rear leg of either a "walking" or a "front" stance. Why?, the rear leg kick will shift the mass into the taget whereas the ready stance will not utilize the momentum (thus neutralizing the apex) of the mass x speed...therefore limiting the FORCE!

TAEKWON!
Spookey