Practicing Traditional Taekwondo in a WTF Sport Taekwondo Dojang

[oftheherd1]

As I understand things the ideas that underpinned older TKD practice were things like:

I studied TKD in the mid-sixties and I think we were pretty traditional.

1. Using kicks to break bones.

Any strike or kick or even a block was intended to cause damage.

2. Using punches to set up kicks (including things like aiming to break the blocking arm).
3. Using snapping kicks like jabs and thrust kicks like crosses.

I don't recall anything that even looked like a thrust kick. Blocks kept us from being hit and then we counter attacked. The first time I saw a thrust kick was from a 3rd Dan TKD I was teaching Hapkido to. I had to ask him what that was and why would you use it. It just didn't make sense from what I had been taught.

4. Using the bones or small striking areas (like the heel, foot ball and ankle bone) to impact vital points, rather than broader foot pads.

Fist strikes too were intended to cause damage.

So from this we can surmise a focus on Speed, Power and Precision and Distancing. - Yep, that was what it was all about.

In training then they probably did much more strength work. My WTF training was almost purely speed based. They would probably made more use of weights.

Obviously more hands but also more conditioning to toughen fingers and grip strength for your spear hands etc.

I don't think grip strength will help a spear hand.

More boxing combinations, especially on a heavy bag so you can practice natural flow into anx out of kicks.
Some trapping/joint manipulation to make things like spear hand strikes happen.

All kicks should use breaking technique which means more toughening toes, ankles and knees. So squats, lunges, farmers walking.

In sparring, minimise time on one leg to maximise mobility. With that comes speed in returning feet to the ground and following kicks with punches to keep opponents at bay. That leads you to more upright kicking postures, which in turn leads to shorter range kicks.

Kicks are your power shots, so more back leg than lead. All of which means more close to mid distance fighting and more knees and elbows and axe kick in close.

So last thing I'll say is that I'm not an old school tkdist, I'm just good at reverse engineering stuff. All the above is guesswork based on the few older depictions of tkd (like Hwang Jang Lee's video) and some old articles I've read.

If anyone contradicts my suggestions the chances are that they know better than me as my tkd history is weak at best.

I have added my memories of a short stint in TKD. I do not mean to be confrontational, only give my experience. I think you have made some good points.

 

[dvcochran]

As I understand things the ideas that underpinned older TKD practice were things like:

1. Using kicks to break bones.
2. Using punches to set up kicks (including things like aiming to break the blocking arm).
3. Using snapping kicks like jabs and thrust kicks like crosses.
4. Using the bones or small striking areas (like the heel, foot ball and ankle bone) to impact vital points, rather than broader foot pads.

So from this we can surmise a focus on Speed, Power and Precision and Distancing.

In training then they probably did much more strength work. My WTF training was almost purely speed based. They would probably made more use of weights.

Obviously more hands but also more conditioning to toughen fingers and grip strength for your spear hands etc.

More boxing combinations, especially on a heavy bag so you can practice natural flow into anx out of kicks.
Some trapping/joint manipulation to make things like spear hand strikes happen.

All kicks should use breaking technique which means more toughening toes, ankles and knees. So squats, lunges, farmers walking.

In sparring, minimise time on one leg to maximise mobility. With that comes speed in returning feet to the ground and following kicks with punches to keep opponents at bay. That leads you to more upright kicking postures, which in turn leads to shorter range kicks.

Kicks are your power shots, so more back leg than lead. All of which means more close to mid distance fighting and more knees and elbows and axe kick in close.

So last thing I'll say is that I'm not an old school tkdist, I'm just good at reverse engineering stuff. All the above is guesswork based on the few older depictions of tkd (like Hwang Jang Lee's video) and some old articles I've read.

If anyone contradicts my suggestions the chances are that they know better than me as my tkd history is weak at best.

Well said. I love the close in Ax kick reference. Most people try to throw them from downtown.

 

[dvcochran]

The reason I want to train Traditional Taekwondo is because I'm 54 year old, and this is my third time training martial arts in my life, and the other two times were in traditional schools. The reason I'm in the dojang I'm in is that they also have Hapkido and Judo, and those two mixed with TKD is a cross training combination I've always wanted to engage in. My instructor has been willing to work with me, so I like it there.

My instructor has been very cool about working with me, so I may ask if on TKD nights I can do some traditional horse stance training, and other more traditional training methods while other people are doing heavy bag and focus mitt sports drills. I'm disabled, so I often have to use a separate bag as everyone else anyway, so it really wouldn't be that different for me to be doing something else off be myself anyway.

Thanks for the replies.

It's been a joy chatting with you. We live in a smaller town that only has a non-traditional TKD school and an occasional Judo class at a gym. I can tell you appreciate you instructor and school and that is great to hear. It sounds like you are in a good place so let us know how things are going. I hope you drop in often with questions and comments.

 

[DaveB]

I have added my memories of a short stint in TKD. I do not mean to be confrontational, only give my experience. I think you have made some good points.

Hey, that's great! As i said, I wasn't there so by all means correct away.

My only note is that when I mentioned thrust kicks i was thinking of things like the side kick mostly. But I know that can be done more snapping than thrusting.

 

[oftheherd1]

Hey, that's great! As i said, I wasn't there so by all means correct away.

My only note is that when I mentioned thrust kicks i was thinking of things like the side kick mostly. But I know that can be done more snapping than thrusting.

Interesting. The only thrust kick I saw from my student was a kick to the chest. He seemed to think it was a good strategy to use such a kick. I reminded him we were now studying Hapkido; we like to grab things.

 

[dvcochran]

Hey, that's great! As i said, I wasn't there so by all means correct away.

My only note is that when I mentioned thrust kicks i was thinking of things like the side kick mostly. But I know that can be done more snapping than thrusting.

Please explain how you do a snapping side kick. It is a kick using the gluteus maximus. I cannot see how you snap from there. I often see people make it a quad kick as they are learning how to do the kick so I can see a snap that way.

 

[andyjeffries]

My other half took the course... last year I guess it was, and they did include that. The impression I got from what he said about it was that it was very much not traditional-style one-step self-defense drills, but more of a military combatives program, something more like Krav. It was also a short class (maybe a half day, if that) and he didn't come home with any kind of printed material outlining any kind of curriculum. I think this is a still a work-in-progress at KKW that they're trying to build some excitement about, not something that actually exists and is ready to be added to a school curriculum.

I recorded the video when they showed us the new syllabus on the instructor course in 2016, but Kukkiwon has asked me not to share the video as it was a rough cut / just recorded in a couple of dojangs more for the content and they are producing a more professional version for wide dissemination. The one step sparring has definitely changed - we were told that both participants start from a right foot back sparring stance, the attacker punches from guard (not the waist) and steps into long stance to punch to the head. A much more realistic version than before at least. They also only do right hand punch. I asked why and was told "because 80%+ of punches on the street are right hand straight punches, so we train for that - as you get used to it, we found you aren't phased by a left punch if it happens, so we train for the common case and react to the uncommon one" (paraphrasing).

 

[dvcochran]

I recorded the video when they showed us the new syllabus on the instructor course in 2016, but Kukkiwon has asked me not to share the video as it was a rough cut / just recorded in a couple of dojangs more for the content and they are producing a more professional version for wide dissemination. The one step sparring has definitely changed - we were told that both participants start from a right foot back sparring stance, the attacker punches from guard (not the waist) and steps into long stance to punch to the head. A much more realistic version than before at least. They also only do right hand punch. I asked why and was told "because 80%+ of punches on the street are right hand straight punches, so we train for that - as you get used to it, we found you aren't phased by a left punch if it happens, so we train for the common case and react to the uncommon one" (paraphrasing).

Any chance of getting a copy of your video?

 

[DaveB]

Please explain how you do a snapping side kick. It is a kick using the gluteus maximus. I cannot see how you snap from there. I often see people make it a quad kick as they are learning how to do the kick so I can see a snap that way.

Different chamber I think.

Google Image Result for https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marijana_Mladenovic/publication/306287416/figure/fig5/AS:669566137016330@1536648415313/Direct-side-thrust-kick-Yoko-geri.png

 

[Yokozuna514]

Different chamber I think.

Google Image Result for https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marijana_Mladenovic/publication/306287416/figure/fig5/AS:669566137016330@1536648415313/Direct-side-thrust-kick-Yoko-geri.png

The illustrations you posted are for two different types of 'kicks':

1) Yoko Geri Kekomi - is what is colloquially known as a side kick.
2) Yoko Geri Keage - is also a side kick but it is known as a rising side kick. Not at all practical for kicking. We use it more as stretching exercise. There is no chambering of the leg for a keage geri. The leg just swings upwards.

 

[dvcochran]

Different chamber I think.

Google Image Result for https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marijana_Mladenovic/publication/306287416/figure/fig5/AS:669566137016330@1536648415313/Direct-side-thrust-kick-Yoko-geri.png

I wish there were a few more positions shown. I still think it is showing a kick form the hips, not a snap. As thrust as the name describes.

 

[DaveB]

I wish there were a few more positions shown. I still think it is showing a kick form the hips, not a snap. As thrust as the name describes.

You place the knee then snap the foot, rather than thrusting all the way through.

I can only do it on my right leg. My left hip won't do it without forcing me to lean over making the snap difficult.

 

[DaveB]

The illustrations you posted are for two different types of 'kicks':

1) Yoko Geri Kekomi - is what is colloquially known as a side kick.
2) Yoko Geri Keage - is also a side kick but it is known as a rising side kick. Not at all practical for kicking. We use it more as stretching exercise. There is no chambering of the leg for a keage geri. The leg just swings upwards.

I know, the keage was just attached.

I was drawing attention to the kekomi which is performed slightly differently by some tkd schools.