Adept
Master Black Belt
Allright, I'll bite. What's wrong with his feet?Doc said:
ppko & xequat take a look
- Thread starter RRouuselot
- Start date
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
I think he was referencing the Kyusho International community, not the Petroleum based product...A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
A
A_MARTIAL_ARTIST
Guest
Well seeing that i dont have ky jelly on the mind,KY could be Kyusho community, KY could be Kentucky (although doubtfull) no disrespect but that is why I asked him so there is no miscommunication.
Thanks anyway
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
I don't turn my rear heel as far as I should in a neutral bow, and am frequently "in the hole" with my width. But that's just the short answer. There's more to it than that. Kinda an inside comment...ABC.Adept said:
D.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
kyusho community, disaffectionately referred to as the petroleum-FREE glycerine based product...used for giving it to the public. It's a pun, of sorts.A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
D.
A
A_MARTIAL_ARTIST
Guest
So am i to conclude that you dont like th kyusho community? Thank you for the reply
by the way!
by the way!
A
A_MARTIAL_ARTIST
Guest
I would also be interested in who you have challenged and as you said put to sleep,if you dont mind me asking! If you dont want to post it you may send it private.
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Rich Parsons
Super Moderator.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Here's a long one folks. Sorry in advance, but it's gotta be said.A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
Apprenticed to the Yoda of the dark side of NLP, I spent a lot of time at such things as Tony Robbin's firewalk weekends in the '80's. Robbins was brilliant at getting people to show up to events, and work for free...security, registration, logistics, snacks, making or spreading the fire, etc. The people who showed to volunteer would frequently congregate in the staff rooms at the weekends, and try to stand out via showing off their own little weirdnesses. Circa eighties-to-nineties, this meant many guys demoing 1-touch KO's in the back rooms. I didn't catch their names, because I didn't ask. I just called BS where I saw it, and gave them the opportunity to test their ability to do what they claimed they could against a non-naive, mobile target. Many napped, or tapped. Many more backed down from someone with nothing more they could verify then the confidence to tell them they were not doing what they though they were doing.
Flash forward a few years to the mid-nineties. I had an MMA gym I was partnered in. Someone else taught the boxing, Muay Thai, sticks and JKD; I taught the jits and putting it all together. I had then (and still have) a standing invitation for ky people to test their skills. I am sure the day will come when they are able to land it, and I'm the one to go nappy-bye. But it hasn't happened yet.
Names? Most of the guys doing this make their living from it, and would not place their livelihood on the line. I offer anonymity: The idea is not to embarrass and publicly humiliate, but rather to inform. They get to come see how well they do, then decide what to do about it next. The responses usually look like:
1. "I woulda/coulda/shoulda..." = someone who just didn't get what happened, because it went by too fast, or they are too heavily invested in their belief system to accept data not accounted for by it.
2. "I think if I was faster, I would have been able to get him right when he was..." they were close, perhaps, but I was too wiggly or aggressive. They may be right. What's that saying about, "...on any given Sunday..."? If they go back and train harder, they may very well be back to put me out. Hasn't happened yet, but I also remember when that was true of a Gracie losing an MMA match. We all know how that ended.
3. "Wow. That sucked. I guess I was misinformed about how this works". Maybe, mebbe not. The first step to acquiring new information is the admission that the pre-existing information was, is, or may be in some way insufficient. It may work fine, but not how they trained it. Or it may have worked fine for previous generations of practitioners, because they approach the topic from a different starting point, leading to different end points. Dillman was an unpopular tough old karate cuss well before the KO thing.
4. "Well, that proved I couldn't do it, but I know Master so-and-so could if he were here." Master worship will get you killed. I think of myself as a pretty good kenpoist and/or BJJ-er, but I will never be an Ed Parker or Rickson Gracie, and knowing that, will avoid putting myself in positions they could likely have handled. Maybe Dillman could handle what his lackeys couldn't. I know, at the time, the original Gracie Challenge (100 grand in Torrance) was still around, and several of the DK/ky guys were taunted specifically to come by and test themselves. None showed. Perhaps because Rorion video-taped the in-house challenge matches. That's why I offered privacy...to see how well the guys did who trained this "art", but didn't want the notoriety of going to sleep on tape. Name one of the ky mucky-mucks that would want video of them sleeping off a choke to show up on Gracie In Action 3?
BTW, see any one-touchers entering the UFC and tapping their ways to big-money winning purses? Heck, if I could nap a guy out with a tap or two, you better believe I would be in the ring making ends meet. Beats working for a living, especially if the whole thing would end as soon as the guy was in tapping range. Biting and eye-raking may not be allowed, but grabs and strikes are. And these are the functional mechanisms by which many of the pressure-point KO's are purportedly facilitated.
I don't dislike the KY crew; I do personally object to raising false expectations in the mind of naive students with checkbooks. I know I can take a guy, and in 6 months of 3 hour sessions, 4 times a week, train him to be "good enough" at ground fighting and kick-boxing to hold his own against the bulk of the populace. Why? Because most folks in the world will never train in martial arts. The vast majority of those who do will end up in a commercial school for a few months, before moving on to some other hobby. They will never do heavy bag training, focus pad training, intense physical fitness training, strategic submissions wrestling with a guy who's trying to negotiate their frame and place them in a painfully compromising position; they will never put on 14, 16, or 20+ ounce gloves and trade blows and combinations with someone aiming at their head for 10 4-minute rounds; and so on. If they (my 6-month student) bump into some road rager in a parking lot somewhere, they are better prepared to cover up against initial attacks, drive a shin to the thigh and a punch to the head, clinch with the guy and knee him in the body before dragging him to the floor to sit on his chest and punch him in the face until pulpy, if they choose to do so.
Granted, the guy will not be bullet-proof. But I never make that claim. I simply represent "better prepared to deal with schtuff, when schtuff happens". Schtuff has happened, and my guys have wrecked their attackers. Done them ugly, and fast.
That, to me, is very different from claiming that, in some amount of time X, you will be able to sneeze on a guy and make him fall down helplessly.
Regards,
Dave
PS -- I used to teach suggestive therapeutics (hypnosis), and am one of the guys who has placed a Q-tip to the skin of a somnambulistic subject, told them it was a lit match, and watched the blister form. As a practitioner of alternative medicine, I see DAILY how people's expectations affect physiological functions that would seem to be completely unrelated to what's going on in their head.
Building Response Expetancy = Informing a subject/patient/person that some Action by the operator will cause or facilitate a specific (or vague) Reaction by the subject.
Example 1: "I'm going to lower my voice in just a moment, and as I do, you might be surprised to find your attention turning inward...you're body becoming more relaxed as it does, until you find yourself deeply entranced in a state of drowsy relaxation". This kind of low-invasive/specific is used to coach more resistant people into suggestive states. Less abrasiveness to react against mentally, so the compliance to suggestion goes way up.
Example 2: "Now, I'm going to count from 5 down to 1, and with each number, your hand will become lighter and start to lift. When I reach 5, your hand will be next to your cheek. Ready? 1...2..."... More invasive/specific, used to cut the crap and get to the point with less resistant subjects.
Example 3: Conversational Suggestive Therapeutics "I know you mentioned your low back is hurting. In just a moment, were going to stretch out the joints in the small of your back, and you will feel significantly better by the time you walk out the door." Now, is it my Chiropractic manipulation that gets them to fell less pain, or the response expectancy I set up with the pre-adjustment suggestion? Having seen the results of Chiro's who DON'T use this direct approach, I lean more towards the power of suggestion.
Example 4: "I'm going to tap you on a specific, sensitive part of your neck, and because of the way the body works energetically, you are going to lose your balance, and may even pass out."
I've seen and trained too many clinical and stage hypnotists to believe the 1-touch and/or NO TOUCH are anything else.
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I normally do not interfere when one of my SuperMods has posted something, but I wish to clarify a point. If it becomes evident that a member has joined Martial Talk for the express purpose of attacking a member of this board, they will be banned with no warning.
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ppko
Master Black Belt
Did you see my news clip that I posted, it's always the person not the artKembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
D.Cobb said:
Disagreements are going to happen on any forum. That being said, there are many options here on MT that one can take if they find themselves getting into a heated debate. The Mods/Admin team look at the heated areas, and address them as they see fit. Warnings, suspensions, and banning are all options that they can take.
Mike
My approach to one touch and no touch knockouts is this:
I have been close to passing out from some strangles but not others while doing judo. I know you get a tap faster when your knuckles are in one place compared to another. So I do not dispute the possibility of striking a point and it knocking a person out.
Also, from watching the mpegs it appears that people are falling down and behaving, functionally, as if they are knocked out. That is as good as a knockout to me. I don't care if it's hypnosis, magic, or chi, it's a knockout of sorts.
However, as with any technique you have to ask - "in which situations would this work"? Some of my boxing techniques only work well with gloves, some of my judo techniques only work with a gi, or on a mat, and so on.
To what situations can this technique be applied? In what situations could I apply this technique? Using the power of suggestion (or your chi - you choose) on a compliant subject may be a valid technique in some situations. For instance, I've seen policemen on TV use joint locks on suspects while they were still compliant which would no longer work once the suspect became agitated.
It is important to know the relevance of any technique, combination or strategy to a situation.
My interest in one touch knockouts is quite low, because if they were at all practicable then people would be pulling them off in judo competitions all of the time. My reasoning behind this is that with a grip on an opponents collar and a knuckle protruding from your fist, a light blow to the ST9 point should be practicable since your opponent is not moving much with respect to your fist. In fact, in Osoto-Gari people regularly smash their palm or knuckles into the side of the neck in order to break balance, but a knockout has not been recorded as far as I am aware.
That suggests to me that a light knockout strike would be even less practicable in general 'fighting'.
I have been close to passing out from some strangles but not others while doing judo. I know you get a tap faster when your knuckles are in one place compared to another. So I do not dispute the possibility of striking a point and it knocking a person out.
Also, from watching the mpegs it appears that people are falling down and behaving, functionally, as if they are knocked out. That is as good as a knockout to me. I don't care if it's hypnosis, magic, or chi, it's a knockout of sorts.
However, as with any technique you have to ask - "in which situations would this work"? Some of my boxing techniques only work well with gloves, some of my judo techniques only work with a gi, or on a mat, and so on.
To what situations can this technique be applied? In what situations could I apply this technique? Using the power of suggestion (or your chi - you choose) on a compliant subject may be a valid technique in some situations. For instance, I've seen policemen on TV use joint locks on suspects while they were still compliant which would no longer work once the suspect became agitated.
It is important to know the relevance of any technique, combination or strategy to a situation.
My interest in one touch knockouts is quite low, because if they were at all practicable then people would be pulling them off in judo competitions all of the time. My reasoning behind this is that with a grip on an opponents collar and a knuckle protruding from your fist, a light blow to the ST9 point should be practicable since your opponent is not moving much with respect to your fist. In fact, in Osoto-Gari people regularly smash their palm or knuckles into the side of the neck in order to break balance, but a knockout has not been recorded as far as I am aware.
That suggests to me that a light knockout strike would be even less practicable in general 'fighting'.
OK, I have a new insight into the eyeball knockout.
Friday I spent 5 hours in Moorfield's Eye Hospital London, of which about half an hour was getting my eyes examined and 4 and a half hours was waiting.
This was a result of a scratched cornea incurred on Thursday night during boxing sparring.
The punch in the eye was a result of a left-right combo. I blinked my eyes shut on the left and had my left eye open as my sparring partner landed a pretty heavy right, bang on the eye.
Well, I saw a bright flash and put my hands up to signal stop and stepped out of the ring. But I was not knocked out, or even woozy. Given that the optic nerve was almost certainly jarred, my experience shows that you certainly cannot guarantee a knockout from an eye poke.
Friday I spent 5 hours in Moorfield's Eye Hospital London, of which about half an hour was getting my eyes examined and 4 and a half hours was waiting.
This was a result of a scratched cornea incurred on Thursday night during boxing sparring.
The punch in the eye was a result of a left-right combo. I blinked my eyes shut on the left and had my left eye open as my sparring partner landed a pretty heavy right, bang on the eye.
Well, I saw a bright flash and put my hands up to signal stop and stepped out of the ring. But I was not knocked out, or even woozy. Given that the optic nerve was almost certainly jarred, my experience shows that you certainly cannot guarantee a knockout from an eye poke.
G
ghostdog2
Guest
" my experience shows that you certainly cannot guarantee a knockout from an eye poke." Posted by Bod
Can I say " Me Too "? I'm sporting one heckuva shiner I got last week. Failed to cover quickly enough, and caught an overhand right. Bloodshot eye, black/purple bruise and hurt pride. Still conscious, though.
Maybe it can be done differently, but in the fast paced world of sparring this type of hit is about as focused and precise as it's likely to get. IMHO no chance it would render one unconscious except thru blunt force trauma.
Can I say " Me Too "? I'm sporting one heckuva shiner I got last week. Failed to cover quickly enough, and caught an overhand right. Bloodshot eye, black/purple bruise and hurt pride. Still conscious, though.
Maybe it can be done differently, but in the fast paced world of sparring this type of hit is about as focused and precise as it's likely to get. IMHO no chance it would render one unconscious except thru blunt force trauma.
OP
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #237
Just a little up date folks.
Seems my last post on Kyusho International pissed someone off as my account on KI has mysteriously been shutdown.
On that thread Pantazi claimed he had no connection with anyone in Japan, basically claiming I made up some story. In my last post I directed his attention to a thread on KI that was made back in mid 2004 by one of his own members, that member did in fact actually come and train with me .once. After my comments a one post wonder just all of a sudden decides to join KI and heads straight for the thread that I am on, and makes his first post there* and states in very immature way that I should just go away. Following his post my account encountered trouble and I was no longer able to log on to KI. I tried to open another account and was declined.
All very coincidental I guess.
Seems my last post on Kyusho International pissed someone off as my account on KI has mysteriously been shutdown.
On that thread Pantazi claimed he had no connection with anyone in Japan, basically claiming I made up some story. In my last post I directed his attention to a thread on KI that was made back in mid 2004 by one of his own members, that member did in fact actually come and train with me .once. After my comments a one post wonder just all of a sudden decides to join KI and heads straight for the thread that I am on, and makes his first post there* and states in very immature way that I should just go away. Following his post my account encountered trouble and I was no longer able to log on to KI. I tried to open another account and was declined.
All very coincidental I guess.
- *Unlike MT to view the forum section on KI you must first join and then get permission to view threads on KI. Odd how someone could choose that thread as the first one to post on.
- Seems we have several one post wonders on this thread on MT that dont have the stones to give out their real names .I guess that is to be expected though since some people prefer to hide behind the safety of their keyboards.
Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
Seems kinda petty to me Rousselot, throwing somebody out because they have called somebody elses bluff...
Sad, very sad.
Sad, very sad.
As a sidebar:
We have in the past experimented with the "need to be a member to view" idea, and founf it caused several problems. One of those was a drop in new signups as people can't 'try it first'.
We have in the past experimented with the "need to be a member to view" idea, and founf it caused several problems. One of those was a drop in new signups as people can't 'try it first'.
Doc
Senior Master
Here's my take on the "eyeball knockout." In my opinion, someone may have accomplished this and assumed it was the eyeball. This is false. However from viewing the video someone put up awhile back, I suggest that it was more probably his cupped hand in conjunction with the proper posture etc. striking the Gall Bladder 20 cluster that is just above the eye over the eyebrow line. Just my take.
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