Power Of The Squat

[chinaboxer]

i’ve now included a “Physical Fitness – Exercises” category in the drop down menu of my tutorial. It will pertain to exercises, conditioning, nutrition etc…that i personally follow and that work for me to enhance my martial arts training.


Today’s subject has to do with “how to do the squat movement” correctly, to avoid injury. I will also go into many key points that relate directly to the wing chun stance and address common mistakes to avoid during training.


http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/10/16/power-of-the-squat/


take care and peace!


Jin

 

[Ken Morgan]

Dude…I don’t like your technique.

I may have only been doing this for 30 years but your feet are too wide in some places, and you never, never, ever go below horizontal with the quads while doing squats. It may feel great when you’re young, but you will blow your knees out very quickly.

 

[chinaboxer]

Dude…I don’t like your technique.

I may have only been doing this for 30 years but your feet are too wide in some places, and you never, never, ever go below horizontal with the quads while doing squats. It may feel great when you’re young, but you will blow your knees out very quickly.

full range of motion or R.O.M is one of the key concepts of weight training, every trainer knows this, and the only way you will blow out your knee is if you try stacking on more weight than you can handle which of course will cause injury. that's why i say to use no weight and until you can get R.O.M, which in most cases is a flexibility issue, and to use "gradual resistance" once you can do the movement properly. i'm not saying that "partials" don't have their place in weight training, because they do. but if you can't get full ROM in ANY movement, then you need to work without weight and develop flexibility in the ROM until you do, and of course, this is assuming you have no prior injuries that may inhibit your movement.

Jin

 

[Ken Morgan]

full range of motion or R.O.M is one of the key concepts of weight training, every trainer knows this, and the only way you will blow out your knee is if you try stacking on more weight than you can handle which of course will cause injury. that's why i say to use no weight and until you can get R.O.M, which in most cases is a flexibility issue, and to use "gradual resistance" once you can do the movement properly.

Jin

I'm aware of the terms, and how things are done, but you're still incorrect in telling people to go below horizontal. I have yet to meet anyone, including powerlifters, bodybuilders or personal trainers who advocate this.

 

[chinaboxer]

I'm aware of the terms, and how things are done, but you're still incorrect in telling people to go below horizontal. I have yet to meet anyone, including powerlifters, bodybuilders or personal trainers who advocate this.

would a powerlifter, bodybuilder, or personal trainer advocate only doing 3/4 of a ROM on bench press? or shoulder press or any other exercise? go ask any qualified personal trainer what is THE most important concept in weight training and they will tell you "full range of motion" which is attained first by improving your "flexibility" BEFORE you start putting on weight. if you can't do full range of motion, and this is assuming you have no injuries, then you have no business stacking weights. that's how you get hurt.

here's a good article...

http://www.tmuscle.com/readArticle.do?id=497495

 

[Ken Morgan]

BP is not a squat.

Please don’t throw out links and articles to me; I’ve been weight training, including bodybuilding, and power-lifting for 30 years. I have written the articles.

I can appreciate what you are trying to do, to educate people. Think what you want, say what you want, preach whatever you want, but you are wrong. You do not go below horizontal in the squat, it may be only a few centimetres, but it can cause huge damage to your knees in the long run.

This is just a difference of opinion but, come talk to me in twenty years son.

 

[chinaboxer]

BP is not a squat.

Please don’t throw out links and articles to me; I’ve been weight training, including bodybuilding, and power-lifting for 30 years. I have written the articles.

I can appreciate what you are trying to do, to educate people. Think what you want, say what you want, preach whatever you want, but you are wrong. You do not go below horizontal in the squat, it may be only a few centimetres, but it can cause huge damage to your knees in the long run.

This is just a difference of opinion but, come talk to me in twenty years son.

so you're 60 years old? and you should share your "articles" so that everyone can learn from them, including myself.

i also find it ironic that you dismiss other authorities on weight lifting and their "articles" on the web, yet you want to say that you have written the articles to show your view point. i call that a "closed minded" individual, but then again, what do i know, right?

and just in case you were wondering, here are the authors credentials on that article, but then again, what do they know, right? ...

Eric Cressey, BS, CSCS is currently pursuing a Master's Degree in Kinesiology with a concentration in Exercise Science at the University of Connecticut. He graduated from the University of New England with a double major in Exercise Science and Sports and Fitness Management. A competitive powerlifter, Eric has experience in athletic performance, rehabilitation, and general conditioningsettings. He can be contacted at [email protected].


Mike Robertson, M.S., C.S.C.S., U.S.A.W., is the Director of the Athletic Performance Center (APC) in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The APC offers sport performance training, injury rehabilitation, and personal training services to its clients. Mike received his Masters in Sports Biomechanics from the Human Performance Lab at Ball State University. Mike has been a competitive powerlifter for the last three years and is currently the USA Powerlifting State Chair in Indiana.To contact Mike, please send an email to [email protected].

 

[dungeonworks]

Im 37 yrs old. I used to lift weights from high school about 16 yrs old until my mid 20's when I decided to stick strictly to body weight only. I have done all my squats below horizontal and my knees feel as young as they every have. I have served in a light infantry unit carrying all of my gear 30+ miles through harsh terain. I played high school football for a couple years, down hill skiing, run on concrete regularly, work an automotive assembly line, martial arts for the better part of 15 yrs, and mountain biked among other things. Chinaboxer is right on in my opinion. I still do body weight squats to this day and at 250 lbs and 5' 10" tall with a barrel shaped torso. I quit the weights because I did'nt like how it made my joints feel. I am big enough so size is not my goal. Maximizing my flexibility and being strong and flexible are my fitness goals.

I know several weight lifters that have done weighted squats through the years and do not go below horizontal....and they all wear knee braces and hobble like they are 80 yrs old. I know guys that are former jocks that don't workout and hobble the same. Full ROM has treated me greatly and like I said, my knees are as good as new thank god. Actually, I think the full ROM bodyweight squats are why they are still golden.

Thanks for all of your postings Chinaboxer. I find them very informative and useful as well as being nice to see how others do things. I appreciate anyone that puts themselves out there to share. :supcool:

 

[dungeonworks]

....and aside my Army days, most of said activities were above my optimal body weight. Yes, I have a gut (Thank you thyroid! LOL)

 

[bluekey88]

I will also add that Mark Rippetoe, author of the book "Starting Strength", which gives detaile dinfo on how to squat, deadlift, benchpress, etc. Mark Rippetoe, who is the strength consultant to the Crossfit guys and is a world renowned strenght coach....advocates going ATG...or all the way down "in the hole" when squatting. Furthermore, he indicates going parallel or les sis actually HARDER on the kness than going all the way down.

I've seen this same info corroborated by Jason feruggia and others, includingh the rehab therapists that helped me get back into shape after I blew out my AC (nothing to do with lifting....MA accident...but weuight traing was a HUGE part of my recovery).

Peace,
Erik

 

[Ken Morgan]

Actually I started weight training when I was 12 and I haven’t stopped since. I have competed in bodybuilding, power lifting, and played around with Olympic weight lifting.

I have posted some small links here in the past; I have nothing to prove to you. If you don’t believe me, no problem. I’m concerned with everyone else here reading what I consider incorrect advice.

I chatted with a personal trainer, (with a Masters in Kinesiology) today and a bodybuilder, wondering if some philosophy has changed over the years that I didn’t know about. They looked at me like I had three heads when I mentioned going below horizontal. They do not recommend it.

Look, as it was described to me, you need to keep constant tension on the muscle when weight training. In a squat, if you go below horizontal, essentially into sonkyu, that tension is released somewhat and you are hyper extending the tendons and ligaments in the knee.

I’m not belittling you, but I just disagree with you and all the people you are linking to. This is an old argument, argued by people better qualified then you or I, and even they can’t agree. Some say below is bad, some say below is OK.

 

[chinaboxer]

Mark Ripptoe is also an excellent source of information and he literally has helped millions by sharing his information.

here is also an excerpt from the owner and author of "stronglifts.com"...

Squats & Knees. “Squatting deep is bad for your knees”. That’s a myth you’ll hear a lot. Some will advise you to do Partial Squats, staying above parallel, to avoid knee injury. This is wrong info. Wrong. Your knee joint is strongest in a fully flexed or fully extended position, not the positions in-between. Partial Squats only strengthen your knees & quads, not your glutes & hamstrings. This causes muscle imbalances & thus injuries.
Millions of competitive weightlifters Squat deeper than described in this article. If you have knee pain from Squats, you’re using bad technique or you lack ankle/hip mobility. Squatting deep is never the cause.

and by the way, i'm 40 and have been weight training for 27 years and have been a personal trainer for the last 11 years. so calling me "son" just shows how ignorant that statement is, since i'm probably the same age as you, Ken.

I also backed this up with every single trainer that i work along side with at the gym i work at, and also the physical therapists that work in the gym on the subject and they all agree with my view point on the subject.

Jin

 

[Ken Morgan]

Sigh.

Look If I offended you with “Son” then I apologize.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that there are different views on going below horizontal? You think your belief is correct, I think mine is. We both know people who agree with us, we can both find links online that verify our position. I think it’s detrimental, and you don’t. Google the question and you will get both sides of the argument.

 

[chinaboxer]

Sigh.

Look If I offended you with “Son” then I apologize.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept the fact that there are different views on going below horizontal? You think your belief is correct, I think mine is. We both know people who agree with us, we can both find links online that verify our position. I think it’s detrimental, and you don’t. Google the question and you will get both sides of the argument.

this i agree with, and if your "approach" was this in the first place, then i wouldn't have chimed in. but, you came in with..."dude, i don't like your technique, how you're 30 years of experience, and how in those years you have yet to find anyone with the same view, how i was completely wrong, how you want me to come back after i put in 20 years...yada yada...you see how you look? in other words, you're not giving me any science, you don't want to "debate", you haven't said anything other than "i'm right, you're wrong". and why the heck would anyone say "son" in a forum other than to try to degrade the individual? i think you're the one who needs to "grow up".

anyways, yes, you are right, there are both sides to this "coin", dad.

 

[qwksilver61]

character two adduction takes care of all that... pardon me...don't know where you get this lest it's earlier shaolin?,Two cents & can't change my mind....

 

[Ken Morgan]

Easy man. We’ve been training the same length of time, and have a different opinion on a subject. I doubt either of us is going to change now. I still believe you are wrong, but I’m not going to quote mine articles for you just to prove my point of view, there is a tonne of information out there, if anyone is interested they can do the work themselves.

 

[geezer]

Chinaboxer, for an old fart at 40, you have have a really impressive vertical jump there! I suffer from what some have called "white-man syndrome" and have never had much spring... even when I was young and skinny.

Anyway, about this squat thing... I think a person needs to be very careful about going so low... perhaps depending on weight, previous injuries, genetics and so forth. I have congenital bone fusions in both ankles and also have very stiff knees... I could never sit over my knees in "seiza" position, even as a child. Since then, I had several serious injuries: a spiral fracture, ACL reconstruction, and so forth, and by age 54, my knees are sore most of the time. My orthopedic specialist (who is also a martial artist and about my age) has specifically warned me against doing low squats. So I think that this is a very individual thing.

Now as to the benefit of low squats to wing chun, I have certain questions. For one thing, I originally trained directly with Leung Ting, and we did not "turn-off" our legs in character two stance, but trained adducting or thighs in opposition to forward hip rotation, creating a gentle, springy isometric tension. This did indeed get tiring at first, but was considered essential to building a "correct" stance. Another difference would be that we weighted the center of the foot, with equal pressure on the heels and toes. Leung Ting rejected both the heel weighted stance and toe weighted stance for various reasons. And these stance specifics were an integral part of his whole system, not isolated idiosyncracies or careless oversights.

Over the years, I'm coming to conclude that there is simply "more than one way to skin a cat". As to what works best, ... to some degree it may depend on the individual. And then there are some things that are just dumb and ill-considered. But the only way to even begin to work these things out is to get them out in the open... exactly like you are doing. Keep it up!

 

[chinaboxer]

Chinaboxer, for an old fart at 40, you have have a really impressive vertical jump there! I suffer from what some have called "white-man syndrome" and have never had much spring... even when I was young and skinny.

hahaha...you made my day, thanks! =D, and thanks for the encouraging words. peace!

Jin