Post Training in Taijiquan

[Quotheraving]

Me thinkest we are getting off the point here...

The point that standing is a good practise in Tai Chi Chuan?
I thought we were staying pretty much on topic and making progress in removing ambiguity, misunderstandings and reaching a consensus of opinion. That's just my perception of the development of the discussion so far.

A big part of or one of the point of post training is being missed completely, quieting the mind

You are right, and while it did cross my mind to mention that body and mind are not seperate and that in finding stillness and natural balance in postures we also return to our natural mind, I feared that bringing up such could only confuse the issue Mo and I were discussing at the time. Being that, to paraphrase you, not all postures are equal or achieve the same results.

I don’t think that was actually something to “see coming”

On the contrary, I introduced stress postures as an extreme example of postures in which no connection can be made, as these are used for torture (the infliction of pain) it seemed an obvious straw man to point out that we willingly subject ourselves to pain in our training, this does however miss the point that there is a difference between muscular pain and physical damage.
You may think that I was being a smart *** by making that claim but it is the simple truth, I anticipated that response... I hoped it wouldn't be employed, even as it was in jest, especially as it potentially opens the door for other people to misunderstand and maybe even think that it's ok to stand in deep postures and experience pain while doing so without first knowing what is and what is not harmful and whether that is good pain (no pain no gain) or bad pain (injury).

It was more of a tongue and cheek response given by someone who has a lot of experience standing in different postures.

You seem to be misunderstanding my motivation in this... I am not trying to attack Mo (why would I, he seems like a nice guy). Though your defence of him is rather touching.
You see, I have no way of knowing what he does or does not understand beyond what he expresses in writing, not being psychic and all , and what he 'seemed' to be saying I disagreed with.

Even when he stated that he concurred I sought to remove all possible sources of misunderstanding (as far as is practical) because I am of the opinion that it is pretty damn important to clearly and unambiguously make the distinction between structurally solid postures that do not harm the body and structurally weak postures that cause damage, not for Mo, but for any interested beginner who happens to read this.

Santi Shi is, to many, torture it is not the same as post training (Zhan Zhuang) that is being discussed

I should add that you brought this up. As far as I was concerned we were just discussing connection and the benefits of standing generally, to quote the OP, Devlin :

"I was using Zhan Zhuang in a general way (probably incorrectly) to refer to standing practice and not a specific posture." *

With that in mind it seemed entirely appropriate to discuss essential principles that can be applied to any form of standing.


The rest of your post I cannot agree with more.


*on a side note I am not sure that the OP is entirely wrong in thinking that Zhan zhuang is also an umbrella term for standing in general.. I myself have always used it as such and when my curiosity was peaked by the suggestion that it refers to one specific posture I did some googling. The upshot of this is that, if it is a misunderstanding it is a nearly universal one.


Here is a good link btw, it's about Yiquan, but it's good advice all the same.

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

 

[Xue Sheng]

On the contrary, I introduced stress postures as an extreme example of postures in which no connection can be made, as these are used for torture (the infliction of pain) it seemed an obvious straw man to point out that we willingly subject ourselves to pain in our training, this does however miss the point that there is a difference between muscular pain and physical damage.

You’re missing the point again…Your motivation was based on a prior post and an expected response that did not come… it was a humorous statement….. I can't be any clearer than that

And I brought in Santi Shi to make that point and to clarify the statement that "one man's torture is another man's training", not in reference to your previous post.

And to many Chinese and Chinese martial artists Zhan Zhuang is a posture and it is a set of postures

Thanks for the link, here is one in return

 

[mograph]

Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.

In this discussion, I was extrapolating my experience, possibly too far. I now recall that when I crouch or squat, I can either squat in a very uncomfortable way, or I can squat in a way that begins uncomfortably but eventually becomes comfortable as my body slowly stretches into a situation where less tension is required to hold myself up.

Regarding the definition of Zhan Zhuang, would it make sense to use "standing practice" as the umbrella term, with Zhan Zhuang and Santi Shi as subsets thereof, differentiated by their traditionally catalogued postures?

And yes, thanks for your defence, Xue Sheng, though I did not perceive an attack.

 

[Quotheraving]

Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.

Good for you

 

[Quotheraving]

You’re missing the point again…Your motivation was based on a prior post and an expected response that did not come… it was a humorous statement….. I can't be any clearer than that

And I brought in Santi Shi to make that point and to clarify the statement that "one man's torture is another man's training", not in reference to your previous post.

And to many Chinese and Chinese martial artists Zhan Zhuang is a posture and it is a set of postures
Thanks for the link, here is one in return

No link seen dude.

And as to the rest, I am feeling that you will disagree simply to fight with me regardless of what I may say... so I capitulate.
You win I was wrong... Now we can move on in a constructive manner

 

[Xue Sheng]

No link seen dude.

And as to the rest, I am feeling that you will disagree simply to fight with me regardless of what I may say... so I capitulate.
You win I was wrong... Now we can move on in a constructive manner

dude... try it now...or click below
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84832

You winning or not winning, agreeing or not agreeing was never the issue, apparently I was wrong in my interpretation of your post based on mograph’s response and I stepped in where I should not have

Please feel free to continue the discussion, far be it for me to interfere

But at this point. IMO, it is too much typing and not enough standing.

 

[mograph]

Guys ... it was a good discussion, with good points all 'round. We can throw words around as long as it's in the genuine interest of discovering a common direction. I don't think we meant anything that we said to be carved in stone, nor do we have attachments to our current ideas.

I for one learned a fair bit, but words are just a beginning. If our practice helps us connect with something that we read in a discussion, so much the better.

Everything's cool.

 

[grydth]

Interesting discussion, all. Strangely enough, the more we discuss, the more I want to practice. I'm not being glib (this time!), but my understanding of the subject comes primarily from my experience in conquering, or being in the process of conquering the difficulties and soreness of standing, but also the progressive microscopic relaxations that have arisen from my standing practice. The more I practice, the more information I expect to gather.

In this discussion, I was extrapolating my experience, possibly too far. I now recall that when I crouch or squat, I can either squat in a very uncomfortable way, or I can squat in a way that begins uncomfortably but eventually becomes comfortable as my body slowly stretches into a situation where less tension is required to hold myself up.

Regarding the definition of Zhan Zhuang, would it make sense to use "standing practice" as the umbrella term, with Zhan Zhuang and Santi Shi as subsets thereof, differentiated by their traditionally catalogued postures?

And yes, thanks for your defence, Xue Sheng, though I did not perceive an attack.

Have you noticed any prolonged soreness or aches from making these changes in your practice? Did you start this in a gradual way?

 

[mograph]

Have you noticed any prolonged soreness or aches from making these changes in your practice? Did you start this in a gradual way?

No, never any soreness or aches after the practice ... only during. But in the beginning, I had sore arms and shoulders during the practice, but now this soreness goes away after 10-20 minutes, depending on how diligent I am with the practice on a daily basis. Mind you, sometimes when I change postures, the Sifu comes by and tweaks them slightly, leading to a very nice pain/soreness, sometimes in a line along the outside of the left arm ... but this too, goes away in 5-10 minutes.

I didn't start gradually, for good or ill. I was thrown into a 40-minute session, 10 minutes per posture, with 5 for cool-down exercises. I don't know the standard names of the postures (Sifu doesn't talk much), but they are basically 1) palms down flat in front, 1 foot apart 2) embracing ball, palms in, lower dantien, 3) palms down flat in front, 3 feet apart 4) arms rounded at sides, palms in to body, sometimes facing behind. We have rarely stood with our hands at mid or upper dantien level. After practice, we take a break, then do some force-testing exercises, where I try to maintain connection while doing small movements.

I always feel great after standing. I have no idea if I could spar effectively after a standing session, but I'm not in any hurry to do that just yet.

I'm still in the conditioning stage, to a greater or lesser extent. I'll try to describe my progress, though: to relax my upper body, I let the arms hang by stretching across the shoulders and letting the focus of my intention diminish outside the core of the torso ... imagining my arms as light and empty, not heavy or full. It helps if I relax my hands, which seem to tense up every now and then.

Regarding the lower body, I balance my weight between forward and back, heels and balls, until eventually, I notice nothing in particular. After that, the movements felt by relaxation become very small, leading to a kind of ripple of connection up my body to the back of the head. It's sort of like when a freight train pulls away and the cars progressively take up the slack ... though it's not just a "pulling", it's also a "filling".

Once I get there, I sometimes do the Yiquan in/out force testing while standing, where I sense the ball (or whatever) by gently expanding, contracting. I vary the frequency and (tiny) amplitude of this testing just to see what happens and look for a connected feeling. I'm still experimenting -- not trying to reproduce what I've read about, but to find my own way.

Regarding what I interpret as "good", at times I've felt tingly, fat, empty, homogeneous, and felt something turning me to one side. These feeling come and go, and I don't seek them any more, but my favorite is probably the emptiness, where I feel empty, hollow, light, because at the same time, my head seems to clear. Interesting.

I've been doing this for about three years. My shame is that (full disclosure!) I do the 40 minutes only once a week, and 10 minutes three times a week. If I do it more often, I expect to get out of the conditioning stage sooner.

Now that's just me. Whatever happens to me may not happen to anyone else. Does that make sense? What happens to you guys?

 

[mograph]

(If my "edit" button hadn't disappeared due to a time limit, I'd have added this to the above post.)

I should add that whenever I stand for any length of time outside of class, I do my best to relax and find some kind of unity in my posture. I'm not one to believe that body changes only happen in class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chen Xiao Wang teaches standing

 

[Quotheraving]

Regarding names for the various Zhan Zhuang postures I thought you may enjoy this http://www.ciaa.org.uk/syl-yiquanZZ.html

This is from Karel and Eva Koskuba's website hopefully they won't mind me linking it here The names Karel mentions are as follows:

Ping Bu - Even Stance

1. Cheng Bao Zhuang	- Holding-by-Embracing Posture
2. Tuo Bao Zhuang	- Holding-by-Lifting Posture
3. Fu Bao Zhuang	- Covering-Holding Posture
4. Fu An Zhuang	- Feel and Press down Posture
5. Ti Cha Zhuang	- Lift-Pierce Posture
6. Tui Tuo Zhuang	- Pushing-up Supporting Posture
7. Gou Gua Zhuang	- Hanging Hook Posture
8. Xiu Xi Zhuang	- Relaxing Posture
9. Cheng Bao Zhuang (Yao Fa)	- Holding-by-Embracing Posture (swaying)
10. Ti Cha Zhuang (Xuan Fa)	- Lift-Pierce Posture (rotating)
11. Ban Fu Shi Cheng Bao Zhuang	- Half-Bend Holding-by-Embracing Posture

COMBAT POSTS - Mo Li

Ding Ba Bu - Fixed Stance ('cat' stance)

Each posture to be practised in the following stages:

• Qian Hou Moli - Forward-Backward Strength Sensing
• Zuo You Moli - Left-Right Strength Sensing
• Shang Xia Moli - Up-Down Strength Sensing
• Da Luan Cheng Xu Moli - Strength Sensing with Changing Directions
• Lieu Mian Li Tong Shi Moli - Strength Sensing in Six Directions

1. Hun Yuan Zhuang	- 'Primeval Void' Posture
2. Ping Bao Zhuang	- Even Holding Posture
3. Cheng Tuo Zhuang	- Pushing Lifting Posture
4. Gou Gua Zhuang	- Hanging Hook Posture
5. Dan Tui Yi Tuo Zhuang	- One Leg Supported Posture
6. Du Li Zhuang	- One-legged Posture
7. Fu Hu Zhuang	- 'Taming the Tiger' Posture
8. Xiang Long Zhuang	- 'Descending Dragon' Posture
9. Niao Nan Fei Zhuang	- 'Bird Flying with Difficulty' Posture

These are the single weighted and evenly weighted standing postures, there are sitting and lying down postures too.
I believe there's also a variant on descending dragon called coiling dragon or some such in which the back leg is lifted off the ground so that the sole of the foot is going directly upwards... needless to say it's not the easiest of postures lol.

Here's some pictures of these postures.

http://www.yiquan-zywg.com/inc/pic/picshow.php?lng=en&pic=bai/pic1.inc