Portland police and excessive force

[shesulsa]

PORTLAND -- A U.S. Department of Justice investigation concluded that the Portland Police Bureau engages in "a pattern or practice of excessive use of force," specifically when dealing with the mentally ill, U.S. Attorney Amanda Marshall announced Thursday.

The investigation found such use of force violates the U.S. Constitution. Still, she said, the problems revealed in the probe are not unique to Portland and the vast majority of PPB's use of force falls within constitutional limits.


Portland Mayor Sam Adams said the report also found that law enforcement agencies are often the first responders in mental health crises, which points to a lack of options for adequate community-based mental health services.”

Link to article
Link to DOJ report
PPB's response

The plan is now to have a different number to call for someone witnessing another person experiencing a mental health crisis instead of calling 911. So who exactly will staff this? Volunteers, apparently. I don't know if Oregon has mental health court - but I know we don't in Clark County, Washington.

This investigation comes after repeated fatal shootings by police of citizens with mental illness in crisis.

Thoughts?

 

[David43515]

My first reaction is that police rarely go around shooting people unless they present an immediate threat to the life or safety of someone else. In which case the police are probably going to be getting involved in the situation anyway.

My second thought is that yes, they need people who can respond to mental health problems before they get to the point where the police need to be involved. Unfortunately 1) that costs money, and 2) people often have an aversion to getting help for their relatives and friends who need it until it's far too late. They deny there's a real problem or that their loved one needs or would benefit from help that they themselves can't provide.

 

[Takai]

"The investigation found such use of force violates the U.S. Constitution. Still, she said, the problems revealed in the probe are not unique to Portland and the vast majority of PPB's use of force falls within constitutional limits."
While not intending to Hijack the thread....I am surprised that the DOJ actually acknowledged that we still have that "pesky" constitution.

I have to agree with David's comment though. Mental health is a serious issue but, by the time LE is involved it has already escalated. When they end up on scene in a threatening situation the will always observe the first rule, "at the end of tour, we go home." If they feel threatened they will take what they deem to be appropriate action. Could the be guilty of excessive force? Yes. However, it can be quite hard to tell the difference between a crank-head tweeking our versus a schizophrenic off his meds.

 

[arnisador]

Another number than 911? The confusion from that alone could be a problem.

 

[Master Dan]

Gong back 30 years or more there have been alot of problems with use of force but also attitude. Dead Oppsums dropped at minority bussinesses doors, A person killed from choking at a 7-11 so Officers made T shirts that said Smokem Don't Chokem, hostages shot along with the hostage taker, few years back a buss driver down town in heavy pedistrian area called in an attempted robery and the officer responding shot 45 times at the guy running down the street never hitting him not sure about anybody else?
In the 70's we did an experimental training program in TKD for the sherrifs department for health and stress benefits and a discussion came out over some issue of the law and force and the Lieutenant pulled out a 357 and shook it and said Law we don't need the law I got a 357?

 

[Steve]

This is very similar to what is happening in Seattle, and it looks like it's becoming increasingly common. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2017242781_doj15m.html

 

[Carol]

This is very similar to what is happening in Seattle, and it looks like it's becoming increasingly common. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2017242781_doj15m.html

"There is political power in putting cell phone video up on YouTube"....yup. Perhaps the most powerful equalizer.

 

[blindsage]

My first reaction is that police rarely go around shooting people unless they present an immediate threat to the life or safety of someone else. In which case the police are probably going to be getting involved in the situation anyway.

This is absolutely true, but as is becoming increasingly apparent around the country, there tends to be a minority of officers within every police force that uses excessive force over and over again, and are not properly dealt with for the safety of the community they are supposed to be protecting.

My second thought is that yes, they need people who can respond to mental health problems before they get to the point where the police need to be involved. Unfortunately 1) that costs money, and 2) people often have an aversion to getting help for their relatives and friends who need it until it's far too late. They deny there's a real problem or that their loved one needs or would benefit from help that they themselves can't provide.

I absolutely agree with this, but it doesn't change or supercede a need for proper training for police officers to deal with mental health situations when they arise. Your statement is a correct observation, but that's all. Police still shouldn't be shooting the mentally ill because they don't know what else to do.

 

[Tgace]

You shoot someone if they present a threat of serious physical injury or death to yourself or others. Regardless of the persons mental health. If some cop does otherwise it's a "bad shoot"...regardless of the persons mental health.

 

[shesulsa]

You shoot someone if they present a threat of serious physical injury or death to yourself or others. Regardless of the persons mental health. If some cop does otherwise it's a "bad shoot"...regardless of the persons mental health.

Should we tell the mental health professionals who house, give care to and treat these individuals about this approach? Their lives are on the line as well as are their families.

Believe me, I respect what you do, and it is extremely frustrating when this community tries to work with law enforcement on safer ways to communicate with people in crisis only for it to fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps it is a good idea to take this out of the hands of people who not only don't have the training to deal with them, but also don't *want* the training.

Peace.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tgace]

Should we tell the mental health professionals who house, give care to and treat these individuals about this approach? Their lives are on the line as well as are their families.

Believe me, I respect what you do, and it is extremely frustrating when this community tries to work with law enforcement on safer ways to communicate with people in crisis only for it to fall on deaf ears.

Perhaps it is a good idea to take this out of the hands of people who not only don't have the training to deal with them, but also don't *want* the training.

Peace.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

If someone is trying to injure/kill you, their mental health is of zero importance at that moment.

If the point is that coppers are shooting people that were not a deadly threat at the moment, that is a different issue.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[blindsage]

You shoot someone if they present a threat of serious physical injury or death to yourself or others. Regardless of the persons mental health. If some cop does otherwise it's a "bad shoot"...regardless of the persons mental health.

If you have the understanding of the situation well enough to determine whether they present a threat of serious physical injury or death to yourself or others. In mental health situations this is not always black and white.

But when you have scenes like this going on in Seattle,

things need to be reevaluated.

I'm sure if your not familiar with this then we will relive all of the conversations going on in Seattle for the last year, but the reality is the man, a well known wood carver, was shot and killed for walking down the street with a 3 inch knife, because he didn't drop it in the first 4 seconds of being told. The officer said the man advanced on him, but he was also deaf in one ear and possibly drunk and may have had cognitive impairment from alcoholism and homelessness, but obviously a black and white situation right?

No charges for the officer, but public outcry caused him to resign. Excessive use of force against minorities is why the Justice department has come to Seattle. It's a well known reality for Seattle residents, but someones is finally saying and doing something about it. If the Justice department is in Portland because of excessive use of force against the mentally ill, it doesn't surprise me.

 

[shesulsa]

If I had fired upon every individual who threatened my life there would be five or six fewer people in the world. Most were mentally ill ... all but one are still living.

But, as we can see, personal and professional filters skew our view of the world until we have whittled down to very few options.

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[Tgace]

If I had fired upon every individual who threatened my life there would be five or six fewer people in the world. Most were mentally ill ... all but one are still living.

But, as we can see, personal and professional filters skew our view of the world until we have whittled down to very few options.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2

Don't confuse a verbal threat with the legal definiton of when deadly force is authorized.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[shesulsa]

You mean like when I was cornered at the business end of a knife? Like having a 2"X4" swung repeatedly at my head? Like being sat on with arms pinned, head held down and sitter's hand raised to smash down on my head? Would those fit your definition?

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[jks9199]

Hey, everybody, let's not try to turn this into a "who's been in tougher messes" competition. A cop's job is to go into danger -- but danger finds plenty of non-cops, too.

Dealing with the mentally ill, emotionally disturbed, or those with mental challenges like autism (I don't like calling autism, especially, mental illness because of the complexity of autism all by itself -- and because it really requires a different approach.) is frustrating, for EVERYONE involved. But, in the end, it's the cop's job to subdue and control the person with the minimum force reasonably necessary that still allows the cop to go home at the end of the day. There's seldom an easy answer, and all too often, the only option is tragic. In the end, if you present a threat of serious bodily harm or death -- you'll be answered in kind. My family deserves that. Please be absolutely clear, however, that the cops aren't starting their day with "I'm gonna shoot someone today!"; it's the least desirable outcome, especially on a mental case.

Considering that there's a court order involved here -- it seems that Portland PD does have a problem. Honestly, lots of police departments probably do because we're cops, not social workers or psychologists. And our hands are often tied even worse by laws. For example, in Virginia, I basically need to be able to say that a person is either a threat to themselves or others, or so non-functional that they can't take care of themselves, before I can even think about taking them in -- and when I do -- it's for a 4 hour assessment by a mental health professional. We don't have a lot of beds available if they do decide to hold someone, either. In terms of dealing with people -- our toolbox is kind of limited.

 

[MJS]

Link to article
Link to DOJ report
PPB's response

The plan is now to have a different number to call for someone witnessing another person experiencing a mental health crisis instead of calling 911. So who exactly will staff this? Volunteers, apparently. I don't know if Oregon has mental health court - but I know we don't in Clark County, Washington.

This investigation comes after repeated fatal shootings by police of citizens with mental illness in crisis.

Thoughts?

Well, IMHO, this is part of the problem:

"He said training deficiencies within the department helped lead to the civil rights issues, and department has wasted no time in beginning the process of improving."

Training issues are usually the #1 problem. At least it seems like they're in the process of fixing that. As for calling another number...IMO, thats just plain stupid. Why? Let's take a look at this. Here in CT we have 211. Its a referral/crisis line. I've taken numerous calls from 211 operators, who're giving info. on a crisis. These events range from domestics, to people talking about suicide. IMO, lets cut out the middle man. Valuable time is wasted when the 211 person is called, because they now have to gather all the info, call the police, and relay all this info again. Many times, questions that the 911 dispatcher or police officer would ask, are not asked by the 211 operator.

As for the excessive force issue...like I said, alot, IMO, comes down to training. In the case that was listed, with the guy that was urinating and tried to get away and was then tackled. I'm not really seeing that as excessive force, as 1 of 2 things would've happened...1) the guy could've possibly just gave up and allowed the officer to do what he had to do, ie: talk to him, give him a ticket, make an arrest, or 2) resist and end up being taken to the ground anyways. Of course, as TGace stated, in some situations, despite the mental stability of the person, if they're trying to injure you, themselves or others, unfortunately, deadly force is the only option.

 

[granfire]

Does this not touch on the problem of how mental illness seems to fall through the cracks more often than not in this country?

A person in an acute episode is an emergency. (No I am not a mental healthcare specialist, don't lay one on TV, but through the 30 years my mom worked in the field I learned more than I ever care to know)

There is this crap about constitutional rights when people are showing outrageous behavior. Yes, in this context it is crap, because the person cannot really appreciate their situation.
yes, most people are harmless, and acting normal does not guarantee they won't listen to the voices at some point in time, but once the situation becomes clear, I find it irresponsible to leave these people unattended.

One of my mom's more memorable customers would flash people at the train stations (female) and yell for 'the Italians with the long dicks', causing my mom to hail down the nearest policeman and giving him the 411 (repeat customer) and I am assuming the lady was back 'home' later that afternoon. the woman was certainly harmless enough, but presumably in danger herself should anybody take her up on that offer in a bad way.

to pass the buck to the police does not seem fair in this context. They are not professionals in this field (though they do get a lot of contact with the same clients my mom dealt with) and they can't be expected to talk a person out of an acute episode.
And once the alternate reality takes over and the person becomes violent....you need either an experienced team of nurses to take a person like this down or the ultimate solution....

 

[MJS]

Most towns/cities, have a crisis team, that the PD can call, that usually deals with 'clients' that have mental issues. We call them all the time, where I work. Personally, I often question how effective this 'team' is, but I guess that may be best suited for another thread.

 

[jks9199]

Most towns/cities, have a crisis team, that the PD can call, that usually deals with 'clients' that have mental issues. We call them all the time, where I work. Personally, I often question how effective this 'team' is, but I guess that may be best suited for another thread.

What, you actually get them to respond? Most of the time with ours, we get a phone consultation, maybe they even talk to the subject (if possible), and either "bring them in if they'll come voluntarily" or "we'll follow up later." Once in a while they actually come out...

Then, when we do get someone up there, often it's like pulling teeth getting them to actually make a decision or call. If they do decide someone needs to be hospitalized -- it can take hours to get them a bed. And we can be tied up with them until they do so...