Poor MT in MMA

[Kieran]

Has anyone else noticed the poor Muay Thai skills in MMA? Through all the promotions I always hear someone say they do muay thai and have done for x years (x = big number usually) but when you see them fight they show little or no muay thai technique or even skill.

For example, I was watching bodogfight season 3 yesterday and one guy said "I have been training Muay Thai for 7 years and BJJ for 5". But it looked like he was talking months, not years! His kicks were pathetic, his stance was wrong and he didn't move like a Thai boxer at all. I understand some of these things may change in an MMA match where you have to quickly adapt but to be training 7 years and not be able to kick properly?

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[Hand Sword]

Yep! The Boxing looks terrible too. The problem is they only dabble in those areas and focus more on the wrestling/BJJ, or more specifically, the offensive aspects of those styles. Once they are on the receiving end, they look clueless.

 

[Kieran]

I've never understood the low guard either? Is that taken from the grappling arts? It is most certainly the reaon for more than a few knockouts!

 

[Hand Sword]

Yeah. It helps when sprawling against the inevitable shoot at the legs for the takedowns. same for the wide stance that prevents kicking adequately.

 

[Tez3]

It's true you need a wide stance in MMA, it's not true that MMA fighters 'dabble' in styles, at least not here. 'Dabblers' would get weeded out vey quickly.
Keiran I assume you are talking about American promotions? Most American fighters seem to come from a wresting background, ours do not with one or two exceptions such as Abdul Mohammed who is not english and was in his countries Olympic team. Look for him in the UFC from the UK.
Many British fighters train MT in Thailand, Micheal Bisping does as do the fighters from our club. Sponsored by Fairtex we train with them in Bangkok.
Our fighters aren't perfect but the majority of them come from the striking arts so their standup is pretty good.

 

[Kieran]

I was really talking about MMA as a whole, but yes, mainly American I guess. I've noticed this in IFL, BodogFight, Cage Rage, UFC and Cage Warriors FC.

Maybe I'm just comparing everyone with too high of a standard? (Anderson Silva!)

 

[Tez3]

I was really talking about MMA as a whole, but yes, mainly American I guess. I've noticed this in IFL, BodogFight, Cage Rage, UFC and Cage Warriors FC.

Maybe I'm just comparing everyone with too high of a standard? (Anderson Silva!)

Er yes? I don't know of many in CR and CW who actually claim to be MT fighters though. I do know a very good female MT fighter in your town though! she spent a while training in Thailand.

 

[Kieran]

haha, I guess your right. No, it's just people who say they have been doing muay thai for years then I see them in the ring and they don't appear to be at the level I would expect them to be.

wow, cool, who is that?

 

[Tez3]

haha, I guess your right. No, it's just people who say they have been doing muay thai for years then I see them in the ring and they don't appear to be at the level I would expect them to be.

wow, cool, who is that?

Jenny Robertson, her husband (maybe ex I'm not sure) is a very good MMA fighter but currently in Afghanistan. they've both been training with the Dinky Ninjas fight team who include Paul McVeigh a very good stand up fighter as well as John Nicholson who went toe to toe with Sandy Geddes at CW5 the only CW show held up north (South Shields) My instructor and I organised that one.

This might interest you http://cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12546

 

[Andrew Green]

His kicks were pathetic, his stance was wrong and he didn't move like a Thai boxer at all. I understand some of these things may change in an MMA match where you have to quickly adapt but to be training 7 years and not be able to kick properly?

Has anyone else noticed this?

Well, what is "proper" changes when the rules change. Based on what is good striking in MMA what Muay Thai fighters do in Muay Thai is "terrible" as well.

The standard Muay Thai sort of stance in a MMA fight would be a big mistake.

 

[Jutt-]

Chuck Liddel demonstrates some good tactics here....

It says he's practising Vale Tudo , but I learnt on this very forum that freestyle.

 

[Hand Sword]

It's true you need a wide stance in MMA, it's not true that MMA fighters 'dabble' in styles, at least not here. 'Dabblers' would get weeded out vey quickly.

Sorry for the "poor choice" of wording. How about they don't put enough focus in those areas. The bulk of focus goes toward the BJJ/wrestling aspect since it is almost 100 percent that the match will end up in that arrea. As for getting weeded out quickly, have you seen the shows the OP listed? Their MT and Boxing skills are merely adequate at best. Most, In my opininon, are executed very poorly. An example? Look at Anderson Silva. He was a MT person. He's destroyed, rather easily too, some MMA "toughguys" and "names". Why? His Boxing/MT skills were correct. Theirs, which were thought to be so, were very paltry upon comparison.

 

[Kieran]

Well, what is "proper" changes when the rules change. Based on what is good striking in MMA what Muay Thai fighters do in Muay Thai is "terrible" as well.

The standard Muay Thai sort of stance in a MMA fight would be a big mistake.

Thanks for the link tez, looks like a good event!

Andrew - I'm nowhere near an expert on either but I would have thought that good Muay Thai striking would render the opponent unable to continue the fight, be it either a KO or a stoppage because the other guy's legs are too messed up to continue. I would imagine that in MMA the same tactic could (and has) be adopted to great effect.

What I meant before was (just to clarify) that a lot of people use "flashy tricks" and don't display the basics. I would have imagined that if you are using Muay Thai along with other systems (such as wrestling or jui jitsu or judo etc) then it would be the basics that don't change and the tricks that do. I don't have any MMA experience though so that's just my guess!

Also, I discovered last night that it's not fighters saying they have loads of experience that annoys me... It's the commentators saying things like "great thai kick there" when it clearly wasn't a thai kick and if it was meant to be then it was a pretty poor one.

*edit* Don't take any of this as me being rude or argumentative in any way!

 

[Tez3]

Commentators! don't get me started I cannot stand any in any sport!

 

[Andrew Green]

Andrew - I'm nowhere near an expert on either but I would have thought that good Muay Thai striking would render the opponent unable to continue the fight, be it either a KO or a stoppage because the other guy's legs are too messed up to continue. I would imagine that in MMA the same tactic could (and has) be adopted to great effect.

Th problem lies in tactics and different rules.

In MMA hands do more damage and can slip through easier. Plus if you get the guy in trouble there is a good chance he will look for a takedown. One of the best times to try and take someone down, is when they are trying to kick you.

So the way you approach your attacks, and even the way you stand and move has to shift to take into account the different dangers.

 

[Kieran]

ah. good point. IN Mt I would be watching for my kcik to be caught or for my supporting leg to be kicked but with people shooting and and whatnot, it becomes different. That makes sense. cheers.

 

[Odin]

Sorry for the "poor choice" of wording. How about they don't put enough focus in those areas. The bulk of focus goes toward the BJJ/wrestling aspect since it is almost 100 percent that the match will end up in that arrea. As for getting weeded out quickly, have you seen the shows the OP listed? Their MT and Boxing skills are merely adequate at best. Most, In my opininon, are executed very poorly. An example? Look at Anderson Silva. He was a MT person. He's destroyed, rather easily too, some MMA "toughguys" and "names". Why? His Boxing/MT skills were correct. Theirs, which were thought to be so, were very paltry upon comparison.

Anderson silva to be fair has lost quite a few fights.

I think he is rated far to high because of his win over Rich Franklin.

 

[Odin]

Th problem lies in tactics and different rules.

In MMA hands do more damage and can slip through easier. Plus if you get the guy in trouble there is a good chance he will look for a takedown. One of the best times to try and take someone down, is when they are trying to kick you.

So the way you approach your attacks, and even the way you stand and move has to shift to take into account the different dangers.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[zDom]

Going out on a limb, here, so be gentle correcting me if I'm off base

Just from observation:

I think some (not all, but definately SOME) fighters may have STARTED Muay Thai (or boxing, or BJJ, or taekwondo, or karate) 5 or 6 years ago, but actually have not spent that much time in the gym training that style.

So, you have a guy who first showed up at a MT gym 5 years ago, for example, may have put in a couple months there ... then started training somewhere else, maybe revisiting the MT gym once or twice a month over the years — maybe even a week here, a week there.

So it comes time to write his (or her) martial art resume, its "5 years of MT."

But that isn't the same as training for two hours 2 or 3 times per week, every week, for five years. Nowhere NEAR the same.

It's all about repetitions, putting the hours in.

From my observation, many televised MMA fighters look like they spend a lot of time in the gym doing progressive resistance exercise (lifting weights), maybe a lot of running.

Well-defined musculature and low body fat.

But their techniques — both punching and kicking — look unrefined.

And their standup often looks poorly trained — they look like they have difficulty judging range, bridging the gap, punching and kicking with the type of accuracy I see from those who put in the time in a boxing ring or striking martial art dojo/dojang.

Mind you this doesn't apply to ALL MMA fighters. There are obviously some good strikers — some who are just naturals, others that have obviously put some time in training their striking ability.

But there are plenty out there who may have STARTED something years ago but really haven't put the hours in — and it shows.

 

[Odin]

Going out on a limb, here, so be gentle correcting me if I'm off base

Just from observation:

I think some (not all, but definately SOME) fighters may have STARTED Muay Thai (or boxing, or BJJ, or taekwondo, or karate) 5 or 6 years ago, but actually have not spent that much time in the gym training that style.

So, you have a guy who first showed up at a MT gym 5 years ago, for example, may have put in a couple months there ... then started training somewhere else, maybe revisiting the MT gym once or twice a month over the years — maybe even a week here, a week there.

So it comes time to write his (or her) martial art resume, its "5 years of MT."

But that isn't the same as training for two hours 2 or 3 times per week, every week, for five years. Nowhere NEAR the same.

It's all about repetitions, putting the hours in.

From my observation, many televised MMA fighters look like they spend a lot of time in the gym doing progressive resistance exercise (lifting weights), maybe a lot of running.

Well-defined musculature and low body fat.

But their techniques — both punching and kicking — look unrefined.

And their standup often looks poorly trained — they look like they have difficulty judging range, bridging the gap, punching and kicking with the type of accuracy I see from those who put in the time in a boxing ring or striking martial art dojo/dojang.

Mind you this doesn't apply to ALL MMA fighters. There are obviously some good strikers — some who are just naturals, others that have obviously put some time in training their striking ability.

But there are plenty out there who may have STARTED something years ago but really haven't put the hours in — and it shows.

I think the thing with is when it comes to going from boxing to MMA is that the stlye of fighting is changed, its not just the stance its also the fact that alot of thaiboxers and boxers dont expect to be able to land single shots in the ring, most shots that hit are set up in combos, ( if you can land single shots all the time then you are boxing below your level ).
In MMA combos are difficult because you are expected to be taken down, there are far to many things to think about when you are in striking range and as such fighters tend to strike out of range, hence why you se alot of lunging shots and mis timed blows.