Poomse -- a race? Imaginary combat?

[Rumy73]

I started with SBD and TSD before TKD. The former I did for seven years; the latter about five. Anyhow, those first experiences deeply inform my approaches. I perform poomse with deliberate slowness, yet with power, including using my hips to generate force. All my blocks begin from hands starting on my hips. In my tkd dojang, I clearly standout from other blackbelts who seem to race through forms. While the speed is impressive, I feel the moves would do little to an opponent. I was taught poomse/hyungs were about fighting an imaginary opponent; however, I heard a different point of that seems to explain what I am witnessing. Poomse are about showing energy, letting things flow. Thoughts?

How do you approach students when you see different approaches? Do you push them to conform? Do you allow variation?

All too many times in here, we have these binary positions in our discussions, but I am one to appreciate different views without feeling threatened in my own. Can we please agree to disagree and forgo the "my martial art is better" pissing contest?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Both have a place.
Practicing relatively slowly allows the student to focus on clean, powerful technique.
Practicing somewhat faster is an excellent warmup and cardio workout.
Speed hides sloppy technique, so I encourage students to slow down for competition, gradings, challenges, etc.

 

[Rumy73]

Both have a place.
Practicing relatively slowly allows the student to focus on clean, powerful technique.
Practicing somewhat faster is an excellent warmup and cardio workout.
Speed hides sloppy technique, so I encourage students to slow down for competition, gradings, challenges, etc.

Interesting. What about kicking combos? I make sure each one is crisp and solid but others feel some pressure to blaze through it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We are encouraged to do them at a speed we are comfortable with, some students go quicker than others and my instructor is cool with that. If, for instance, we have all black belts on the floor doing koryo, from when the first student finishes to when the last student finishes there could be a 20-30 second difference. Our instructor doesnt like us looking "rushed" or looking like we are on valium. He has told me that he likes the actual technique to be performed quickly but the time between techniques may vary from student to student.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Interesting. What about kicking combos? I make sure each one is crisp and solid but others feel some pressure to blaze through it.

For combos (not just kicking combos) I tend to think that lower ranks ought to be focusing on technique, not speed, and that the speed will increase gradually as the skills improve.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Speed can be used to hhide errors.

 

[Rumy73]

What about breathe control? I work to make sure I inhale deeply before executing and exhale as I perform the strike/block.

 

[Cyriacus]

What about breathe control? I work to make sure I inhale deeply before executing and exhale as I perform the strike/block.

Im not sure that has anything to do with Poomsae, so much as anything when done slowly.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I started with SBD and TSD before TKD. The former I did for seven years; the latter about five. Anyhow, those first experiences deeply inform my approaches. I perform poomse with deliberate slowness, yet with power, including using my hips to generate force. All my blocks begin from hands starting on my hips. In my tkd dojang, I clearly standout from other blackbelts who seem to race through forms. While the speed is impressive, I feel the moves would do little to an opponent. I was taught poomse/hyungs were about fighting an imaginary opponent; however, I heard a different point of that seems to explain what I am witnessing. Poomse are about showing energy, letting things flow. Thoughts?

How do you approach students when you see different approaches? Do you push them to conform? Do you allow variation?

All too many times in here, we have these binary positions in our discussions, but I am one to appreciate different views without feeling threatened in my own. Can we please agree to disagree and forgo the "my martial art is better" pissing contest?

I have a rather blunt view of kata/forms. They mean something. They are something that you are doing to someone. They aren't a set of dance steps. I've seen people do fantastically fast and flashy forms. I'll then ask them, "This part of the form...what did this movement mean"? I usually get that 'deer-in-the-headlights' look. They don't have a clue that it was a throw or a lock or a balance displacement or a cavity press. The may as well have trained at Aurthor Murray's dance studio. IMNSHO...they aren't doing martial arts, they are dancing.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing a kata fast and hard....as long as you know what it is you're doing. And I don't mean just the periphreal part. I am one of those teachers that teach forms have more meaning beyond just kicking and striking. I make no apology for that because when I look at a kata I see these elements within.

Forms today are taught FAR to quickly. In many schools you learn a new form in a month or so to get that new colored belt. Again, IMNSHO that is bogus training. It is a cookie-cutter mentaility and the student is the one that suffers for it. And to again be blunt, if the instructor doesn't know any better it is up to them to get some continuing education on the subject. I did. I can take just one 'basic' form such as Il Jang and make it last a year with the amount of information it includes. It has, beyond striking and kicking and movements mistaken as blocks, throws, locks, balance displacement etc. That one form could enhance a students training by degrees!

In the 'ole days' a kata took time to learn. Uechi Kanbun Sensei did just the OPENING movements of Sanchin kata for three months! Not the whole form...just the opening movements. That is how he learned all three of the kata (out of four) in the art of Pangainoon. It took him ten years to learn all three! But he LEARNED them. When he performed just one of them in the town square during a show-n-tell ceremony....no one followed him. They didn't want to lose face because of the depth of power and knowledge in which he performed the kata.

So yes, many do forms too fast and they learn too many of them. They are cookie-cutter versions of what they could be. What is better, knowing a couple of dozen forms that can be done zippy-split fast with an understanding that it is a collection of punches and kicks (many of which would not work in real life in the manner they are presented in the form) or one or two or three that you know inside out and can be used as strikes, kicks, locks, throws, presses etc.

Again, that is just me and my opinion YMMV

 

[Manny]

I started with SBD and TSD before TKD. The former I did for seven years; the latter about five. Anyhow, those first experiences deeply inform my approaches. I perform poomse with deliberate slowness, yet with power, including using my hips to generate force. All my blocks begin from hands starting on my hips. In my tkd dojang, I clearly standout from other blackbelts who seem to race through forms. While the speed is impressive, I feel the moves would do little to an opponent. I was taught poomse/hyungs were about fighting an imaginary opponent; however, I heard a different point of that seems to explain what I am witnessing. Poomse are about showing energy, letting things flow. Thoughts?

How do you approach students when you see different approaches? Do you push them to conform? Do you allow variation?

All too many times in here, we have these binary positions in our discussions, but I am one to appreciate different views without feeling threatened in my own. Can we please agree to disagree and forgo the "my martial art is better" pissing contest?

When I start TKD and way out to red belt we did palgwe forms then we swithch to taeguks, I like palgwes more however I must to adhere to taeguks. How poomsae inside tkd must be done? as you do I don't like to rush in and do technikes fast and without technike, I would rather do the poomsae with power and well done, with the pauses where they belong and be quick when I have to. For me doing poomsae must be done with proper tecnike not rushing.

BTW why you started in SBD/TSD and then swith to TKD? was this a smart move? SBD/tsd are more traditional or less sporty than TKD, why you did this?

Manny

 

[Manny]

What about breathe control? I work to make sure I inhale deeply before executing and exhale as I perform the strike/block.

Good point.

Manny

 

[Manny]

I have a rather blunt view of kata/forms. They mean something. They are something that you are doing to someone. They aren't a set of dance steps. I've seen people do fantastically fast and flashy forms. I'll then ask them, "This part of the form...what did this movement mean"? I usually get that 'deer-in-the-headlights' look. They don't have a clue that it was a throw or a lock or a balance displacement or a cavity press. The may as well have trained at Aurthor Murray's dance studio. IMNSHO...they aren't doing martial arts, they are dancing.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing a kata fast and hard....as long as you know what it is you're doing. And I don't mean just the periphreal part. I am one of those teachers that teach forms have more meaning beyond just kicking and striking. I make no apology for that because when I look at a kata I see these elements within.

Forms today are taught FAR to quickly. In many schools you learn a new form in a month or so to get that new colored belt. Again, IMNSHO that is bogus training. It is a cookie-cutter mentaility and the student is the one that suffers for it. And to again be blunt, if the instructor doesn't know any better it is up to them to get some continuing education on the subject. I did. I can take just one 'basic' form such as Il Jang and make it last a year with the amount of information it includes. It has, beyond striking and kicking and movements mistaken as blocks, throws, locks, balance displacement etc. That one form could enhance a students training by degrees!

In the 'ole days' a kata took time to learn. Uechi Kanbun Sensei did just the OPENING movements of Sanchin kata for three months! Not the whole form...just the opening movements. That is how he learned all three of the kata (out of four) in the art of Pangainoon. It took him ten years to learn all three! But he LEARNED them. When he performed just one of them in the town square during a show-n-tell ceremony....no one followed him. They didn't want to lose face because of the depth of power and knowledge in which he performed the kata.

So yes, many do forms too fast and they learn too many of them. They are cookie-cutter versions of what they could be. What is better, knowing a couple of dozen forms that can be done zippy-split fast with an understanding that it is a collection of punches and kicks (many of which would not work in real life in the manner they are presented in the form) or one or two or three that you know inside out and can be used as strikes, kicks, locks, throws, presses etc.

Again, that is just me and my opinion YMMV

Followin you I must say it's better to learn a kata/poomsae for a full year and then aply for a kup test, passing it and then star with a new poomsae and so on. As you do it's better for me learn perfectly well 4 or 6 katas/poomsae than go for 8 or 12 pommsae. Too many poomsae for me it's a waste of time and too little it's not enough. For me inside TKD I will use kicho shodan as the star of the beginer and then only taught only 4 taeguks (the most representatives) from yellow to red belt, the koryo from black and then maybe a couple more for the following dans.

Manny

 

[Rumy73]

When I start TKD and way out to red belt we did palgwe forms then we swithch to taeguks, I like palgwes more however I must to adhere to taeguks. How poomsae inside tkd must be done? as you do I don't like to rush in and do technikes fast and without technike, I would rather do the poomsae with power and well done, with the pauses where they belong and be quick when I have to. For me doing poomsae must be done with proper tecnike not rushing.

BTW why you started in SBD/TSD and then swith to TKD? was this a smart move? SBD/tsd are more traditional or less sporty than TKD, why you did this?

Manny

I switched, because I moved for work. In my current location only TKD is reasonably close.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I started with SBD and TSD before TKD. The former I did for seven years; the latter about five. Anyhow, those first experiences deeply inform my approaches. I perform poomse with deliberate slowness, yet with power, including using my hips to generate force. All my blocks begin from hands starting on my hips. In my tkd dojang, I clearly standout from other blackbelts who seem to race through forms. While the speed is impressive, I feel the moves would do little to an opponent. I was taught poomse/hyungs were about fighting an imaginary opponent; however, I heard a different point of that seems to explain what I am witnessing. Poomse are about showing energy, letting things flow. Thoughts?

How do you approach students when you see different approaches? Do you push them to conform? Do you allow variation?

All too many times in here, we have these binary positions in our discussions, but I am one to appreciate different views without feeling threatened in my own. Can we please agree to disagree and forgo the "my martial art is better" pissing contest?

Pumsae means "Quality forms of strength." Each pumsae has a meaning and conforms to the shape of either one of the eight trigrams (palgwe) or a Hanmoon character.

The meaning of the pumsae should be contemplated as it is practiced and it should (in my opinion) be practiced with power, precision, and crispness. While I don't think that pumsae should be raced through, once they're learned, they shouldn't be practiced with artificial slowness either. Also, some movements are meant to be practiced with speed and others with deliberate slowness and power. In other words, strikes should be performed with the power and velocity that one would expect in a strike used against an opponent. Other movements, such as the beojumeok in taegeuk chiljang, are performed with deliberate slowness with an aspiration. Meorileul jabah meurup chigi (pulling the head and striking it with the knee) should be done in a fashion that would be consistent with its application on a resisting opponent; it will have to be powerful, and because the opponent is resisting, it will not be as fast as say, a punch or kick.

As for how you look by comparison to other black belts in the class, I would be more concerned with how your sabeom is directing you to perform the pumsae. If he or she is pleased with your performance of pumsae, then that is enough. Each student is different and has a different mindset. Another student could look at you and wonder why you're moving so slowly. Neither of you is necesarilly right or wrong.

Edit: I would also like to add that pumsae are not intended as being representative of imaginary combat. Each pumsae is meant to express specific principles and ideas of Kukki taekwondo.

 

[granfire]

One of the instructors in my area was an aficionado of forms. He could work up a good sweat practicing them.

Speed won't do you no good if the technique is crap.

Technique will only get you so far without energy.

As the ITA changed over (let's only touch on that on the surface, shall we...) they implemented what they called 'CAT2' moves: the techniques were combined and done at a faster - doubled - speed than the other moves. Te forms always had some slower moves in them, like press blocks.

One of them was a double outer forearm block/twin low block, complete with arms crossed twice, done before the front kick was put back on the floor...incidentally the first BB form. I called it the 'don't fall on your face, Grasshopper' form...the move is tricky.
The official reason was to install a better timing for combinations, to avoid having each move be a single, all the time.

Once you have the moves down, the techniques, you can speed it up. When you notice you get sloppy, go back to basics.
(also something the instructor taught at a black belt seminar: an amazing thing how sloppy our white and yellow belt forms were...)


Forms, katas, Poomse, Hyongs, whatever you call them, are to practice techniques you cannot do on your training partner with full force.
They would object strenuously to being grabbed by the ears (the move is actually an eye gouge) and kneed in the face....or having their peaches plucked from the tree....

The idea as defined by the organization is (was, anyhow) to have the form reflect a fight between one or more opponents, to have the moves in a logical sequence that include blocks and evasions as well as strikes and kicks.

One of the most powerful ones I have seen was by my then 61 year old friend, set to the country diddy form the 70s 'I am woman, hear me roar' (the singer didn't roar much) but it fit my friends journey through life, and her freestyle reflected her new found power, and the moves were....well symbolic.


Aside from the physical aspect, forms also have the mental aspect. It is you and your body. Or it should be.
it has been proven by now that unaccustomed moves further the connections between brain cells. Dr Moshe Feldenkrais was working on that over 30 years ago...interesting stuff.
Above mentioned friend experienced amazing developments in aspects of her life she had by then taken for granted, bad memory, feeling depressed, etc.
learning the forms empowered her far beyond the physical part!

Another lady told me the story of her first husband. It was somewhat sad, really...she was at the time in Korea with the peace corps (I seem to recall) and both took TKD....she noticed how the mental aspect worked it's way onto his face when he practiced the forms.
In short, it broke something free in him that eventually led to them moving apart. But yeah...the poomse initiated the development. \(I wish i could meet her again, it was a chance encounter in the parking lot of the gym...we stood there and talked for three hours...)

Poomse is much more than the sum of it's parts. If you ever only practice the physical side of it, all you get out of it is the physical part.